The death of "traditional martial arts".

[Harkon72]

There is more to Kata than a nostalgic training pattern; this is where the Karatedo is - it's the blueprint for the style. Interpretation is the fine art of what is the soul of the Martial Art. To write your own is a skill that Dan grades must master, but this has to be rooted in the art not the sensational, a Kata lacking in the substance of the Karatedo is just a sequence of moves.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Beautifully put

There is more to Kata than a nostalgic training pattern; this is where the Karatedo is - it's the blueprint for the style. Interpretation is the fine art of what is the soul of the Martial Art. To write your own is a skill that Dan grades must master, but this has to be rooted in the art not the sensational, a Kata lacking in the substance of the Karatedo is just a sequence of moves.

[bushido_man96]

I really don't think kata developed out of tradition. It developed out of necessity. I'm not saying it still isn't viable, but I don't think it is as necessary as it once was.

[cheesefrysamurai]

I really don't think kata developed out of tradition. It developed out of necessity.

I agree. Over time as the system gets canonized, it becomes tradition.

I'm not saying it still isn't viable, but I don't think it is as necessary as it once was.

Necessary for what? For learning the art of Shotokan - absolutely necessary, for learning to protect your life . . . not so much.

[muttley]

I really don't think kata developed out of tradition. It developed out of necessity.

I agree. Over time as the system gets canonized, it becomes tradition.

I'm not saying it still isn't viable, but I don't think it is as necessary as it once was.

Necessary for what? For learning the art of Shotokan - absolutely necessary, for learning to protect your life . . . not so much.

I beg to differ on this. By "just doing the Kata" you have a point, but looking into the bunkai of the Kata then, in my view you are wrong.

Wasn't it Master Itosu who said in his first precept:

"Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one’s family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian."

Baring in mind his belief in Kata, is this not still true?

[straightblast]

Again I agree with Bushido_man. Itoso modernized older Kata, simplified it out of necessity for school children to learn and bring karate to the masses.

[JusticeZero]

Kata is like a textbook for a skill. It may be a good textbook, but I don't confuse the textbook for the skill itself.

[ShoriKid]

Kata is like a textbook for a skill. It may be a good textbook, but I don't confuse the textbook for the skill itself.

Calls back to Iain Abernethy's analogy. Kata is like a cookery book (English=American: Cook Book). You can't eat the cookery book, but it has directions to make good meals.

[bushido_man96]

I really don't think kata developed out of tradition. It developed out of necessity.

I agree. Over time as the system gets canonized, it becomes tradition.

I'm not saying it still isn't viable, but I don't think it is as necessary as it once was.

Necessary for what? For learning the art of Shotokan - absolutely necessary, for learning to protect your life . . . not so much.

I beg to differ on this. By "just doing the Kata" you have a point, but looking into the bunkai of the Kata then, in my view you are wrong.

Wasn't it Master Itosu who said in his first precept:

"Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one’s family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian."

Baring in mind his belief in Kata, is this not still true?

One man's precept. And not the first, and definitely not the last to be made by any individual. Funakoshi had a book of 20 of them, I believe. Some I agree with, and some I don't. Some are taken too literally, in my opinion.

The thing to keep in mind about "tradition" is that it is something that is established over time through repetition. Its really nothing more. Some people are more willing to attach importance to some and not to others. I think its also important to notice that just because a tradition has been established over time, doesn't mean that something better can't come along and replace it.

[cheesefrysamurai]

I can't deny your logic.

I certainly don't think kata is the end all be all. Its part of a curriculum.

All I'm trying to say is that if one day I want to earn my shodan in goju, I have to learn it. - No way around it.

I cannot begin to try to reinterpret a system to my own preference. I SURELY do not have the skill or knowledge.

So far it feels kata is more a moving meditation for me. Its feels like a moment where everything stops and my concentration is focused on proper form, breathing, the snap my gi makes when i strike, kiais, and It does not replace drills or sparring.

I think drills and sparring are far more important to real fighting skills but my goal isn't about the quickest way become battle ready.

What i meant before is, regardless of system of karate, If you are picking and choosing what techniques to study, you are not learning the complete art.

I guess i could eliminate what i feel is worthless or redundant but then it would not be Chojun Miiyagis Goju (or close to it),

It would be cheesefrysamurai karatedo.

Many of you are far more skilled then I am and can do this. I can not.

I really don't think kata developed out of tradition. It developed out of necessity.

I agree. Over time as the system gets canonized, it becomes tradition.

I'm not saying it still isn't viable, but I don't think it is as necessary as it once was.

Necessary for what? For learning the art of Shotokan - absolutely necessary, for learning to protect your life . . . not so much.

I beg to differ on this. By "just doing the Kata" you have a point, but looking into the bunkai of the Kata then, in my view you are wrong.

Wasn't it Master Itosu who said in his first precept:

"Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one’s family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian."

Baring in mind his belief in Kata, is this not still true?

One man's precept. And not the first, and definitely not the last to be made by any individual. Funakoshi had a book of 20 of them, I believe. Some I agree with, and some I don't. Some are taken too literally, in my opinion.

The thing to keep in mind about "tradition" is that it is something that is established over time through repetition. Its really nothing more. Some people are more willing to attach importance to some and not to others. I think its also important to notice that just because a tradition has been established over time, doesn't mean that something better can't come along and replace it.