The death of "traditional martial arts".

[Harkon72]

I consider myself to be a Traditional Karateka, I practice the three K's barefoot, I use a Nuchaku that has a traditional pattern. But our Style is young, it is based on science and psychology, physiology and modern sport technology. We wear the best Kumite protection gear, our Kata are recorded and scrutinized for form and focus. Our Kihon is developed using physical and energetic science to make it more efficient and powerful. But above all the Tradition we endure to preserve is that of Budo, an old way of thinking and spiritual growth; it's all about attitude and the way of the modern Warrior. Honorable lives take a lot of work, ethics and values develop not just from your teacher but from your own way to inner peace. If this is traditional in a modern world then no, the Traditional Martial Art way will never die.

[Kusotare]

There will always be a market for "traditional" arts. And let's face it, the term traditional is a bit of a moving target anyway. There will be people always who want to study a particular method of training made popular by a specific nation during one point if it's history and will want to abide by the training practices that the founders of it's systematization set forth. There's nothing wrong with that. Martial arts is a big umbrella and there's all sorts of legitimate reasons to study it.

That said, I'll just throw out my two cents. It's a touchy subject.

For me, I see most traditional arts slowly becoming a niche market for those individuals I cited above (who I respect for their choices btw). For people who want to look at sd in the arts, you're going to see more and more cross training and merging of arts to fill in and compliment holes in base systems. People who do this will then move on to teach those skills to other like minded individuals. People seeking self defense aspects will be drawn to these avenues of learning.

Mostly, what holds "traditional" arts back in the self defense realm has more to do with training modalities than technique (but not always). Current, study proven, learning theory tells us that there ARE better and worse ways for adults to learn. And yet many traditional arts continue to teach "self defense" movements thru kata and unrealistic one steps. This is less than optimal for a variety of reasons. People don't make the connection and move away to schools using methods more akin to what Justice is talking about.

I'm not bashing kata. I'm simply using it as the most common and "off the top of my head" example of using a 100 year old teaching tool to teach modern combatives.

On another note, MMA, being highly popular, will have an impact as well. At it's outset, which I was fortunate enough to be around for, most people came out of a specific "traditional" background and started learning other things to compete. As the rules became more standardized, there was less need to experiment. Largely it was found that MT, BJJ, and wrestling would provide the best avenue to win that specific contest. Now, students who are drawn to that sort of contest won't need to "discover" this. They'll just start in programs that already take this into account and bypass the start in traditional arts (speaking generally here of course),

It's not a "death" of trad arts, but more of a better understanding of what people are going into the arts for.

Very well put.

Martial arts is a very big umbrella as you say - and of course, which ever path you choose, doesn't make you any less the martial artist -or the style you do any less worthy of that label.

Just be sure to read - and fully understand that label though!?

K.

[muttley]

I think that the boundaries have become some what blurred too much of late with the onset of MMA.

I like to watch MMA, it's great for spectator sports, but that is what it has become is it not? MMA students train to win on a "points base/KO" basis. Does this make it good for self defence? Indeed does any sport based martial art (Olympic Taekwondo for example) train it's students for an incident on the street?

I feel (like many others) that martial arts are becoming more sports orientated and is this a good thing for the art? Kata for example is an essential part of karate training and are forms that can be used in self defence.

Fighting on the other hand, as has been said by people more qualified than I am to talk on the subject is "what happens when self defence has gone wrong". This is a quote I can completely agree with, surely the training we do should teach us more than how to deliver the perfect technique to knock someone out on the street?

[Nevinyrral]

Traditional martial arts, especially those that have limited contact sparring, fall into oblivion, because most people believe that with no contact you can not learn self-defense.

Often, the same applies to those arts that do not have competitions.

In my opinion, moving away from traditional martial arts is only temporary and due to popularity of MMA. Just look back at the history of K1. Many excellent karatekas began to move into the professional ring. Children practicing karate dreamed of K1. Many dojo changed to became kickboxing gym. But the initial interest in kickboxing subsided, and they began to return to tradition.

All these are created the media and the public. They decide whatat any given time is more practical, more deadly, more profitable or simply healthier.

[Harkon72]

MMA has done a lot for the popularity of MA, but I find that the hard work involved in making a fighter can be found when they are grounded in tradition. Muay Thai - BJJ style fighters are a good example of this.

[bushido_man96]

I'm curious about what level of training in 'Budo' is the equivalent of the minimum standard of 'Self Defense' training, and if, if that is your focus, you meet it. Daily debriefing sessions on every aspect of daily life to compare it to the ideals set down in writings on feudal Samurai codes of behavior? Have any of your fellow students needed to perform hark-kiri yet?

I'm not sure you can measure Budo and Self Defence on the same weighing scale.

As for whether our training meets a minimum standard? - Well that's kinda the point. Budo is all about getting better, so no, I guess we don't often hit the sweet spot - but it's all about the trying.

There is only training!

K

Why not? Budo is "warrior way," correct? So a warrior's way would include some effective, efficient self-defense, right? Hard training, whether in self-defense or "budo" arts will forge many of the same traits through training; hard work ethic, respect, discipline, etc. They just tend to come about in different ways.

[bushido_man96]

I think that the boundaries have become some what blurred too much of late with the onset of MMA.

I like to watch MMA, it's great for spectator sports, but that is what it has become is it not? MMA students train to win on a "points base/KO" basis. Does this make it good for self defence? Indeed does any sport based martial art (Olympic Taekwondo for example) train it's students for an incident on the street?

Many, but not all, MAs have developed a sporting aspect. People like to compete, so style/organizations look for ways to bring in the students they need and keep them interested. And that's ok. There will always be those who like to compete, and those who do not. It won't stop either person from pursuing their goals, though. And that is the great part.

Not every person into MMA is doing it to get into the UFC. I'm sure that many are, but not all. I would do it just to train and learn. And not every TKD school teaches only to be good at Olympic sparring. My school is basics and forms first, and we very much focus on teaching for our testing requirements (which I don't care for so much, but it is what it is).

I think those who choose to focus on sport get a bad rap all to often. Yes, they fight with rules. But that doesn't mean they can't defend themselves. Olympic TKDers are hard kickers, and fast. Those kicks can work on the street, if done right. Likewise, an MMA fighter can probably take care of themselves on the street, as well, being as well conditioned they are, and how much they work on knocking people out.

I feel (like many others) that martial arts are becoming more sports orientated and is this a good thing for the art? Kata for example is an essential part of karate training and are forms that can be used in self defence.

It isn't a bad thing, like I mentioned above. Its just a thing. Its up to instructors to fill in the holes so that self-defense isn't neglected. Not every style has to have a forms system to be a good self-defense system, either. Neither does the presence of a forms system negate any self-defense, or sporting, skills, nor guarantee their presence. Some styles just skip the forms and teach self-defense.

Fighting on the other hand, as has been said by people more qualified than I am to talk on the subject is "what happens when self defence has gone wrong". This is a quote I can completely agree with, surely the training we do should teach us more than how to deliver the perfect technique to knock someone out on the street?

I think we can all agree that fighting outside of the ring is not good. I don't think many of us want to be there. There are those individuals out there who do like to fight, and will go looking for them. But that's an issue for that individual to deal with. I don't think competition-focused styles fosters this kind of behavior, though. My son Wrestles, but doesn't see the need to try to slam someone on the pavement at school. In the end, its just a different outlook on training.

[MasterPain]

If a person was worried about kata being killed by a sport, they should not worry about MMA, but kata competition. Extra points for acrobatics and screaming.

[bushido_man96]

If a person was worried about kata being killed by a sport, they should not worry about MMA, but kata competition. Extra points for acrobatics and screaming.

Good point.

[Kusotare]

Why not? Budo is "warrior way," correct? So a warrior's way would include some effective, efficient self-defense, right? Hard training, whether in self-defense or "budo" arts will forge many of the same traits through training; hard work ethic, respect, discipline, etc. They just tend to come about in different ways.

Indeed, and as I have mentioned earlier in this thread, but the aquisition of self defence skills is not the primary goal.

K.