The death of "traditional martial arts".

[muttley]

Since I have started on my search for a new dojo to train in and widened my search from a Shotokan Dojo to other forms of martial arts, I have noticed something that is becoming more and more worrying for me.

There are too many Dojo that do not specify what style they train, just claiming to be a "Martial Art". It's like they have been born out of someone training in a few different martial arts for a few years and then trying to take the best of all to develop their own art.

While I have no issue in "cross training" and having taken some classes in Aikido and other traditional arts as well as Shotokan (it is good to have a broader horizon), what I don't understand is why there is such an increase in these Dojo's and a decrease in traditional arts.

Is is due to UFC, MMA etc? I know that these are appealing, but do they teach the spiritual side of Martial Arts, the budo, the Zen? It's sports martial arts and promoted to the extreme which to me is ruining the thing that I love.

What do others think about this, is it all too easy for someone to train, get a black belt in one style, then train for a few years in another style and then launch their own "revolutionary" fighting style ala Bruce Lee and JKD (although his findings were warranted)?

[Spodo Komodo]

Traditional Dojos are becoming harder to find. The emphasis now seems to be on hybrid systems and many actually advertise that they don't deal with the spiritual side of things at all. Out of my local dojos there are many that advertise themselves as training a traditional martial art with Muay Thai and BJJ thrown in for added effectiveness. To me this is not training in a traditional martial art but a hybrid system. One local class advertised Aikido/Muay Thai which seems a bizarre combination of conflicting doctrines to me.

I suspect that it is a bit of a fad, the current seems to go deep (Iain Abernethy's bunkai approach et al) and then broad (MMA, hybrid systems etc.) on a cycle of several years. New guys on the scene need a USP and they can only choose to be different from what is on offer at the time, whether that be a return to tradition or breaking out and innovating. It all adds to the rich history of the arts, not everyone likes tradition as much as we do. Given time it will come around again.

[Harkon72]

I believe there will always be traditional martial arts; we don't practice for tradition's sake, we practice because of the values these martial arts are based on. The calmness of Aikido, the focus of Karatedo, the purity of Iaido. The emphasis here is on the way - the Do. Call me old fashioned, but the enduring appeal of tradition will be maintained long after the next trendy fighting fad has died.

[ps1]

I think it just depends where you are. In my area, there are 3 Isshin Ryu schools and 2 Shotokan schools. But I know what you're saying. It's hard to find a pure art. I believe this is for 2 reasons:

1. Politics...Many instructors break off from their original instructor/orginazation for one reason or another. When this happens, they sometimes change this or that and call the art something else. Shotokan becomes PS1 Karate.

2. Broadening Horizons...Many instructors learn a little bit from several styles. But I think you'll find that they are primarily one style if you go and train. They just may have a few extra joint locks or throws or weapons ect...

Any instructor who can't/won't give you their ranks in each individual style they studied should not be trusted, IMO.

My own jiu-jitsu school used to be operated out of a school like that. The young man who owned the primary school was a 4th dan in TKD. Yet he refused to call his system TKD. He said it's because too many people have a negative view of the art. I tried to point out to him that it was his job to change their minds. Instead, he called it something else. I was greatful that he let me open my jiu-jitsu school inside his place, but was happy when I finally got my school away from such dishonesty.

Anyway, good luck in your search.

[MasterPain]

but do they teach the spiritual side of Martial Arts, the budo, the Zen?

How do you define these things? Speaking of Zen, it's founder was willing to teach his Way to warriors, but disliked that they used just the applied psychology aspects of it to become better fighters. Dogen was a pacifist.

[muttley]

Defining these things, to me it's about the values instilled in the martial arts, in the Do that you learn.

By this I mean that in studying Shotokan for example, I was taught to respect the rank long before I joined a regimented job. I was taught control, avoidance of trouble etc.

Now, with so many of these "Martial Art" Dojo that do not specify what exactly it is you are learning, how can you through yourself into the Art, the Way, the Do?

To me these Dojo are more set up for fitness at best or to learn how to batter someone into submission (at worse) which is fine if that is all someone wants to get out of the Art, a mere hobby. But to me, the study of a Martial Art, be it Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo or whatever should be more, much than that...

[Kusotare]

Playing Devil’s advocate here - whilst I would agree that there are added benefits to learning a traditional art - most of these you can get elsewhere - outside of Martial Arts.

In addition to respecting rank and learning self control, you can gain camaraderie, self esteem, self confidence and the sense of achievement from many other hobbies, pastimes and sports.

I’d also argue that those virtues are not exclusive to the softer “do” arts like Aikido and Tai chi etc. (or indeed traditional martial arts as a whole),as I think you can get them just as easily from a club that teaches full contact Thai boxing for example. The difference is maybe that it is not always at the top of their agenda to do so or immediately apparent.

K.

[Wastelander]

I don't think that traditional arts are dying, necessarily, but they are certainly changing. The concept of "budo" and Zen in martial arts is really more of a Japanese addition to karate (since you were talking about Shotokan, I'll stick to karate for this) and wasn't really present in Okinawan karate. Conflict avoidance, respect, politeness, and self control were still taught, of course, but not in the same way the Japanese did it.

To me, those things should be side-effects of your training, but that's because my goals in training are not the same as your goals. I want to train for combative effectiveness, so while I pick up the budo aspects along the way, they aren't my primary objective. For you, those aspects may be the most important thing and you couldn't care less about combative effectiveness. Or, of course, you could be somewhere in the middle, or have some other, completely different goal.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should find what fits you. I've heard of MMA gyms that put the budo mindset foremost in their training, even if they don't do it in a traditional manner. I've heard of karate schools that don't deal with mental development at all, despite being "traditional" schools. The style isn't really important. What's important is that the way the school is run meets your needs.

[muttley]

I guess my main issue here is the rise of clubs with no dedicated style. They have no real direction and this annoys me. I have even seen people promoting themselves as a master/grandmaster, these people are Sho-dans, Ni-dans at best.

[Tkdampbjj]

To me it does not matter what it's called. U can call it "martial way of the flowering fist." What really matters is the quality of what is being taught. If you look at what joe Lewis, super foot, and benny the jet did, when they added boxing to karate in the 70s do you think they were clouding tradition or strengthening their art. Martial implies combat. If you are not focusing on success in those engagements we prepare for, then are you doing martial arts?

I am a mixed traditionalist. I enjoy the traditions and respect found in Tkd and karate, but am not bound to it.