There's A Mess Of Them

[sensei8]

"I do not believe in styles anymore. I mean, I don't believe that there's such a thing as a Chinese way of fighting, or a Japanese way of fighting, or whatever way of fighting. I don't believe in different ways of fighting now. I mean, unless human beings have 3 arms and 3 legs, then we will have a different way of fighting. But basically we all have two arms and two legs so that is why I believe there should be only one way of fighting and that is no way." ~Bruce Lee

But here we are. Separated by a name, therefore, not joined together as brothers and sisters of the MA. Protecting what's ours as though life depended on it, and it's possible, to some degree, that it does. We've more styles of the MA than Carter has liver pills. How many different ways can one move? How many ways can one kick or punch? How many ways?

Well, we manufacture answers to those very questions so that they will fit perfectly and conveniently in a neat package in order to suffice for that very moment.

There's more styles of Karate than one can shake a stick at whether it's Japanese or Okinawa. Shotokan, Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and/or Kyokushinkai to say the least.

Then there's Tae Kwon Do: Two of the most popular systems of Tae Kwon Do are named solely after their respective organizations...the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (WTF) and the International Tae Kwon Do Federation (ITF).

Then to give it equal billing, there's Jujitsu, and in that, it's branched off into its many different paths: aikido, hapkido, judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and kajukenbo.

Not far in the front or behind, then there's Kung-fu/Gung-fu with its equally long list of styles: Wing Chun, Jeet Kune Do, Southern Praying Mantis, Northern Praying Mantis, T'ai chi ch'uan, Wushu, Fu Jow Pai, Drunken Monkey, and Five Animals.

Last but not least are the styles of the MA that aren't so extraordinary after all: Ninjitsu, Capoeira, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Silat, Pankration, Savate, Krav Maga, Systema, Tang Soo Do, and S.C.A.R.S., to name just a few, and I mean a very few.

These styles are different, and these styles keep us separated so much that we're divided in such a way that we just don't get along, and in that, we think that "ours" is all that, and because of that, everyone's style isn't seen in a favorable light of acceptance.

I don't know just how many styles of the MA exist, but there's a mess of them. Way to much "stuff" keeps us creating another style of the MA that I dare to ask...

Does the world truly need another style of the MA?

Your thoughts...please and thank you!!

Edited March 30, 2013 by sensei8

[Harkon72]

In the family tree of styles, many connections can be made. But I don't believe in preserving a style for it's own sake. Some styles like Bujinkan Ninjitsu are preserved because of tradition, others like Krav Maga are made for a purpose. For me Okinawan Karate is a rich historic family of styles, many it can be argued are outdated, they in turn have evolved into what are today modern, vibrant systems, fit for the 21st century. Combat styles and Law enforcement systems are proven to do what they are designed to do, fitness and health are a focus for some. Sport is an attraction for many, and not just to fight; Kata is a deep art of modern Karate too. I am blessed with a very good Sensei, I despair at some stories of when clubs become a business; please let your martial arts come from the heart and not the pocket. Look for the Do, the way, and you will find it.

[sensei8]

BJJ; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Jujitsu's core? Shotokan; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Shuri-te's core?

For a matter of fact, why was Shindokan, the style I've trained in for nearly 50 years, created? Soke I ask you, what was wrong with Shuri-te's core?

[ps1]

The primary thing that separates styles isn't movement...it's doctrine. Most arts have percussion techniques, grappling techniques, and weapon techniques. It's how those particular systems utilize their techniques that defines the style.

A karate stylist will grapple (even if its just grabbing a sleeve) to set up their percussion techniques (strikes). A Jiu-jitsuka will use percussion to set up their grappling.

BJJ; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Jujitsu's core? Shotokan; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Shuri-te's core?

Clearly, they were necessary to someone. The evidence is that they exist. Helio found that a locked closed guard was highly effective for his small frame. It was an easier method of launching this techniques.

So on for Funakoshi Sensei and so on.

Once we're talking about different methods of the same doctrine, we are discussing differences in strategy. TKD and Shotokan are both percussion arts. But the strategies each employ are different (often). This is what separates them from one another.

A more obvious or understandable example would be the difference between Army Rangers and Army Delta Force. Both are Army. Both are ground style forces. But the way they employ their weapons and actions are very different.

[tallgeese]

Agreed. Doctrine is the big defining difference. That said, there's enough movement differences to to be noticeable in many cases.

As long as people learn differently and have different uses, a variety of systems to train and provide principles will be beneficial.

[sensei8]

The primary thing that separates styles isn't movement...it's doctrine. Most arts have percussion techniques, grappling techniques, and weapon techniques. It's how those particular systems utilize their techniques that defines the style.

A karate stylist will grapple (even if its just grabbing a sleeve) to set up their percussion techniques (strikes). A Jiu-jitsuka will use percussion to set up their grappling.

BJJ; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Jujitsu's core? Shotokan; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Shuri-te's core?

Clearly, they were necessary to someone. The evidence is that they exist. Helio found that a locked closed guard was highly effective for his small frame. It was an easier method of launching this techniques.

 

So on for Funakoshi Sensei and so on.

Once we're talking about different methods of the same doctrine, we are discussing differences in strategy. TKD and Shotokan are both percussion arts. But the strategies each employ are different (often). This is what separates them from one another.

A more obvious or understandable example would be the difference between Army Rangers and Army Delta Force. Both are Army. Both are ground style forces. But the way they employ their weapons and actions are very different.

But, it was still Jujitsu and it was still Shuri-te. Changed, but still core.

WARNING: BAD COMPARISON...

A Taurus, a Lincoln, and a Crown Victoria are brands of the Ford Motor Company, but, imho, they're all still Fords, and in these, they're all still automobiles.

Please be nice...I did say it was a bad comparison!!

[sensei8]

"...I believe there should be only one way of fighting and that is no way". ~Bruce Lee

As Bruce said at the beginning of his quote; he didn't believe in a Chinese or Japanese way of fighting, therefore, he believed that NO WAY was the only one way of fighting. Labels, imho, can ruin a brand by the brand being the focus and not the context.

[tallgeese]

The primary thing that separates styles isn't movement...it's doctrine. Most arts have percussion techniques, grappling techniques, and weapon techniques. It's how those particular systems utilize their techniques that defines the style.

A karate stylist will grapple (even if its just grabbing a sleeve) to set up their percussion techniques (strikes). A Jiu-jitsuka will use percussion to set up their grappling.

BJJ; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Jujitsu's core? Shotokan; was it truly necessary to create it? What was wrong with Shuri-te's core?

Clearly, they were necessary to someone. The evidence is that they exist. Helio found that a locked closed guard was highly effective for his small frame. It was an easier method of launching this techniques.

 

So on for Funakoshi Sensei and so on.

Once we're talking about different methods of the same doctrine, we are discussing differences in strategy. TKD and Shotokan are both percussion arts. But the strategies each employ are different (often). This is what separates them from one another.

A more obvious or understandable example would be the difference between Army Rangers and Army Delta Force. Both are Army. Both are ground style forces. But the way they employ their weapons and actions are very different.

But, it was still Jujitsu and it was still Shuri-te. Changed, but still core.

WARNING: BAD COMPARISON...

A Taurus, a Lincoln, and a Crown Victoria are brands of the Ford Motor Company, but, imho, they're all still Fords, and in these, they're all still automobiles.

Please be nice...I did say it was a bad comparison!!

I think that might be an accurate comparison in some cases. There are plenty of stand up systems of similar decent that it applies to. However, that's not always the case. For instance, BJJ and JJJ are very different in philosophy, training modality, and tactics that they are indeed different "brands".

There might be some similarity between BJJ and one of the turn of the century sub sets of Judo, but we're not even certain how much due to long remaining lineage. However, BJJ has evolved to the point that I really doubt that it currently resembles any part of that former sub art.

FMA are knife heavy, and certain arts out of Japan also utilize the knife. Yes, both boil down to using the sharp part against the other guy but they are SO dissimilar in training method that one can't really argue that they are the same thing.

[Tkdampbjj]

I had a moment of enlightenment the other day concerning this topic. I don't care what style you are talking about you are going to find similarities. Techniques are shared, or slightly modified. Often you will see a principle that is shared, a lock, a punch, a kick, off balancing, or whatever. The more styles you study and train the more Bruce's quote makes sense.

[ShoriKid]

If you boil things down to core principles, all arts get very similar. However, it's the approach that you take, how they are presented that matters to some.

Sensei8, I'm sure that you have an intimate understanding of how Shindokan generates power, how it breaks an attacker down, strategically and tactically. Does ITF TKD generate power the same way, break attackers down in both strategy and tactics the same way? Yes, properly implemented the result is the same. However, the path taken to those results is different. The journey is different, we all reach the mountain top in the end. The journey does matter though. If I go to the Grand Canyon and drive from Tennessee, it's a different trip and experience than flying in from Montana or boating up the water course from the Gulf.

We're all headed toward the same mountain top, we all have to get there in our own way and the method taken matters. BJJ came about because Helio saw a need to change something to fit him, and others saw value in that. Nagamine Shoshin saw the need to codify his training experience, his personal method to reach the mountain top, and teach it to others. Both of these men saw the need and others saw the value. Bruce Lee was reacting not so much, I think, to styles, but the barriers built up between them during his time. Chinese weren't supposed to teach outsiders, members of one style where supposed to train with others of another style. Hidebound people had lost that sharing that used to be there between styles where instructors sent students to other instructors just to make them better.

Put another way, fighting (stand up or ground etc, etc.) is language. Principles are rules of grammar that you have to follow for things to make sense. Styles are formatting that over lays the language and grammar to help it make sense to a certain audience. The best writers can on occasion throw away the rules of grammar and format and create art. But, they didn't start out there, they had to learn grammar and formatting first so they can tell when it's time to throw away the rules. So, we all speak the language, but we need the grammar and the format to communicate the important ideas.