Undisciplined, Unruly, Disrespectful

[sensei8]

How do we teach those students who seem to be quite undisciplined, unruly, and/or disrespectful?

Many parent(s) will bring your their child(ren) to your school of the MA for learning the MA and all that it offers besides the hopeful ability to learn how to defend themselves. Often times a parent(s) has brought to your their one or two children that are more than a handful for them to discipline. In that, we, the teachers of the MA are given the task, and a difficult task to say the least, of imparting discipline and control and respect onto their child(ren).

That's suppose to be the job of the parent(s) solely, imho. Yes, the MA can and does teach these things that the parent(s) are wanting from us, but we give it to them as the side affect of training in the MA; it comes with the territory.

If it's an adult student that displays these characters and is set in their ways, well, I'll give it a college try but when the night meets the day, it's time to expunge said student immediately.

Can you train the negative behavior out of them? If so, that's when the game of wills begins...not a fun game.

Not by forcing your will upon them. That will only compound against you ten-fold.

Being consistent, yet equal across the board with discipline, as well as any reward, is the key to reaching through their walls.

Don't bully; be firm. You can't beat them into submission. One, it's against the law and two, that not, imho, how to reach our students.

CONSISTENCY!!

As with every student, make them accountable across the board. Having them take ownership of their actions within and without the school is important. That way 'its' not just a thing that you spout out from frustration.

Reward them outwardly whenever they merit it. Albeit, withhold any reward when their actions are unfavorable.

Never verbally attack them; attack the problem. Any discipline should be delved out privately and never in front of the student body. Public discipline can cause more damage than one could imagine. Once that occurs, trust, for you, is lost forever!!

Be genuine; don't be fake. They'll see through all of the smoke, bells, and whistles!! Your main objective, imho, is to teach the MA, however, instilling some core life skills along the way is a win-win. No, you're not the parent(s), nonetheless, you're a teacher, so, teach!! What if they don't have parent(s)?! Then be that positive role model to them.

Every student, adults and kids, clean the school. Give them a very specific task that they can take pride and ownership of. In that, they won't see every task as a punishment, both at the school, and more importantly at home. They'll want to perform them. Before you know it, they'll do the required task/chores without ever being instructed to do so.

Find that key to the problem and you'll unlock unbelievable possibilities!!

[The Greatest Disciple]

So I finally read your thread, and my solution is easier. I send the "difficult" students to my "assistant instructors" (purple & brown belts) This may seem like a cheap and lazy way out, but my teachings go to the students who really want to learn.

[Lupin1]

So I finally read your thread, and my solution is easier. I send the "difficult" students to my "assistant instructors" (purple & brown belts) This may seem like a cheap and lazy way out, but my teachings go to the students who really want to learn.

Do you do anything to equip your purple and brown belts to work more beneficially with those students? (beneficial for the purple and brown belts as well as for the beginners?)

[Lupin1]

I love what you said about consistency-- that's a huge part of it.

Another good tip is to set out your expectations right off the bat. First night, get the beginners aside (or, if the other students need a reminder, just do the whole class), have them sit around you and outline the rules and behavior expectations. Most importantly, make sure to go over the whys for every rule (best way is to have them tell you why-- ask them "What does horseplay mean? Why is it important not to play around in the dojo?" The kids know the answers to those questions and having them personally think about the dangers and what might happen helps them internalize and personalize the rules and helps them see the value in those rules more easily. Post the most important rules on the wall where they can be a constant reminder and have these group discussions as needed if a bunch of kids are showing they need a reminder.

Another idea is to work to form a sense of community in the class and to develop the idea of citizenship-- each individual's responsibility to the classroom community. They're a team-- they're all there to work together and learn together and it's everyone's job to make sure their friends and classmates are able to learn in a fun, safe and supportive environment.

If they don't follow the rules, separate them from the group. Tell them something along the lines of "Your behavior right now is making it very hard for your classmates (or "friends" for younger kids) to learn/is making me worried that you or one of your friends might get hurt". Then separate them from the class for a little bit. Have them sit by themselves out of the way for a few minutes and just leave them alone. Tell them it's just a short break to calm down/re-center and get ready to rejoin the class. After the time is up, simply ask them if they're ready to follow the rules. If they are, have them jump right back in, if not, have them stay out of the way until they are ready.

If a kid is repeatedly making it difficult for the others to learn or doing things that might be dangerous to himself or others, just tell the parents it isn't working. Sorry. It's an after school activity that the other students are paying good money for and want to actually learn during. If one student is ruining that for the entire class or putting the other students in danger with his behavior, kick him out. You're a karate school, not a reformatory.

[Harlan]

Wow. That's a lot of work.

My answer: it's not my job, I don't need your money, and I won't stand for you stealing/wasting my time.

In short: leave.

People are waaaay too used to a school system and society that can't truly address bad behavior due to rules limiting responses, and expectations of parents.

[The Greatest Disciple]

So I finally read your thread, and my solution is easier. I send the "difficult" students to my "assistant instructors" (purple & brown belts) This may seem like a cheap and lazy way out, but my teachings go to the students who really want to learn.

Do you do anything to equip your purple and brown belts to work more beneficially with those students? (beneficial for the purple and brown belts as well as for the beginners?)

It is sort of a grooming effort to get them ready for black belt. I give them difficult students to work with on basics and kata, and if they rip their hair out and scream at them then they are not ready for black belt. I find that it is a great tool to find out if they are ready to begin teaching.

Plus, the white belts seem to work better with Kyu belts. I guess it is because they see them as just fellow students instead of someone they have to call sir.

[sensei8]

Wow. That's a lot of work.

My answer: it's not my job, I don't need your money, and I won't stand for you stealing/wasting my time.

In short: leave.

People are waaaay too used to a school system and society that can't truly address bad behavior due to rules limiting responses, and expectations of parents.

I hear what you're saying, but...

We're suppose to be teachers of the MA, and the key is teaching. I'm not saying that we must spend the rest of our lives correcting what parents should have done already. No.

I'm to teach, and not just the MA because I believe that the it's worth it and that it won't be wasted time. Either the student gets it or not; however, I will have learned something for myself for MY betterment.

[inventor]

I have owned and operated a karate dojo for over thirty years. I have never had a discipline problem. I have never raised my voice or punished any student in any manner. When a new student joins a class the existing students are very disciplined, they stand at attention without moving or talking. The new person senses that this conduct is the norm and immediately adapts. I have taught students whose dues were paid by various state agencies and in each case was told that the person was very unruly. In every case they immediately adapted to the protocol of our dojo. If I ever had a student, that did not adapt, I would ask them to not return.

Fix their hearts first.

[CredoTe]

How do we teach those students who seem to be quite undisciplined, unruly, and/or disrespectful?

Many parent(s) will bring your their child(ren) to your school of the MA for learning the MA and all that it offers besides the hopeful ability to learn how to defend themselves. Often times a parent(s) has brought to your their one or two children that are more than a handful for them to discipline. In that, we, the teachers of the MA are given the task, and a difficult task to say the least, of imparting discipline and control and respect onto their child(ren).

That's suppose to be the job of the parent(s) solely, imho. Yes, the MA can and does teach these things that the parent(s) are wanting from us, but we give it to them as the side affect of training in the MA; it comes with the territory.

If it's an adult student that displays these characters and is set in their ways, well, I'll give it a college try but when the night meets the day, it's time to expunge said student immediately.

Can you train the negative behavior out of them? If so, that's when the game of wills begins...not a fun game.

Not by forcing your will upon them. That will only compound against you ten-fold.

Being consistent, yet equal across the board with discipline, as well as any reward, is the key to reaching through their walls.

Don't bully; be firm. You can't beat them into submission. One, it's against the law and two, that not, imho, how to reach our students.

CONSISTENCY!!

As with every student, make them accountable across the board. Having them take ownership of their actions within and without the school is important. That way 'its' not just a thing that you spout out from frustration.

Reward them outwardly whenever they merit it. Albeit, withhold any reward when their actions are unfavorable.

Never verbally attack them; attack the problem. Any discipline should be delved out privately and never in front of the student body. Public discipline can cause more damage than one could imagine. Once that occurs, trust, for you, is lost forever!!

Be genuine; don't be fake. They'll see through all of the smoke, bells, and whistles!! Your main objective, imho, is to teach the MA, however, instilling some core life skills along the way is a win-win. No, you're not the parent(s), nonetheless, you're a teacher, so, teach!! What if they don't have parent(s)?! Then be that positive role model to them.

Every student, adults and kids, clean the school. Give them a very specific task that they can take pride and ownership of. In that, they won't see every task as a punishment, both at the school, and more importantly at home. They'll want to perform them. Before you know it, they'll do the required task/chores without ever being instructed to do so.

Find that key to the problem and you'll unlock unbelievable possibilities!!

And from:

I love what you said about consistency-- that's a huge part of it.

Another good tip is to set out your expectations right off the bat. First night, get the beginners aside (or, if the other students need a reminder, just do the whole class), have them sit around you and outline the rules and behavior expectations. Most importantly, make sure to go over the whys for every rule (best way is to have them tell you why-- ask them "What does horseplay mean? Why is it important not to play around in the dojo?" The kids know the answers to those questions and having them personally think about the dangers and what might happen helps them internalize and personalize the rules and helps them see the value in those rules more easily. Post the most important rules on the wall where they can be a constant reminder and have these group discussions as needed if a bunch of kids are showing they need a reminder.

Another idea is to work to form a sense of community in the class and to develop the idea of citizenship-- each individual's responsibility to the classroom community. They're a team-- they're all there to work together and learn together and it's everyone's job to make sure their friends and classmates are able to learn in a fun, safe and supportive environment.

If they don't follow the rules, separate them from the group. Tell them something along the lines of "Your behavior right now is making it very hard for your classmates (or "friends" for younger kids) to learn/is making me worried that you or one of your friends might get hurt". Then separate them from the class for a little bit. Have them sit by themselves out of the way for a few minutes and just leave them alone. Tell them it's just a short break to calm down/re-center and get ready to rejoin the class. After the time is up, simply ask them if they're ready to follow the rules. If they are, have them jump right back in, if not, have them stay out of the way until they are ready.

If a kid is repeatedly making it difficult for the others to learn or doing things that might be dangerous to himself or others, just tell the parents it isn't working. Sorry. It's an after school activity that the other students are paying good money for and want to actually learn during. If one student is ruining that for the entire class or putting the other students in danger with his behavior, kick him out. You're a karate school, not a reformatory.

Great posts!!! We basically have the same idea in our dojo...

Harlan makes a good point, as well, but we save the "In short: leave" conversation for a student that has been given a 2nd chance or 2... We can't just play "whack-a-mole" with unruly students because our potential student body pool in our town isn't the largest... However, even if we did have a large student body, sensei8's and Lupin1's explanations would still apply (But, we could play whack-a-mole, so to speak, with students that refuse to improve their discipline / respect / behavior that have been given many chances...whack-a-mole with a boot to their rear ends out the door)