Do Karate schools suspend/Demote black belts???

[bushido_man96]

What about pure skill schools that test based on fitness and skill level. does this mean that an old timer can never gain rank or loses rank as they are physically unable to perform as well as they did in their 20's??

Well that is up to the individual school or organisation. FWIW, if the criteria is purely based on purely on physical skill and not knowledge then maybe what I said about having a physics degree but no longer a physicist should be applied.

I think in most instances like this, the criteria will be graduated based on age, so a 50 year old wouldn't be required to perform to the standards of a 20 year old.

[DWx]

What about pure skill schools that test based on fitness and skill level. does this mean that an old timer can never gain rank or loses rank as they are physically unable to perform as well as they did in their 20's??

Well that is up to the individual school or organisation. FWIW, if the criteria is purely based on purely on physical skill and not knowledge then maybe what I said about having a physics degree but no longer a physicist should be applied.

I think in most instances like this, the criteria will be graduated based on age, so a 50 year old wouldn't be required to perform to the standards of a 20 year old.

Seems to be the case with most dojos.

In a hypothetical situation though, if a dojo did require blackbelts to be at a certain physical level, they could retire students when their skill level drops. As harsh as that seems, it's up to the school what they do and how they award (and take away) rank and if they really wanted to they could choose to strip rank because that's their prerogative.

[vantheman]

As far as disciplinary actions go, I think the offense would need to be either extremely disrespectful/distasteful or a bad misuse of status for a school to say they no longer want that student representing them as a black belt (or otherwise).

As far as physical ability goes, I think that there is no reason to demote someone because they are not as fit as they were when they received the rank. Does anyone go around demoting their 10th DAN founding Grandmaster because they are 80 and may not perform as well in a sparring match a professional MMA fighter as they did when they founded the art?

Like I said, for a student to get demoted, the offense has to be extreme.

Edited February 20, 2013 by vantheman

[kensei]

As far as disciplinary actions go, I think the offense would need to be either extremely disrespectful/distasteful or a bad misuse of status for a school to say they no longer want that student representing them as a black belt (or otherwise) of the school.

As far as physical ability goes, I think that there is no reason to demote someone because they are not as fit as they were when they received the rank. Does anyone go around demoting their 10th DAN founding Grandmaster because they are 80 and may not perform as well in a sparring match a professional MMA fighter as they did when they founded the art?

Like I said, for a student to get demoted, the offense has to be extreme.

I agree with this....well written post.

[T3chnopsycho]

Well I've never experienced that a BB was downgraded or something. We've had a BB who started to train like 30 years ago with our Soke and trained for years --> reached BB and then sometimes later stopped. Now she returned and still has her BB.

In my opinion once someone has earned his BB he should be allowed to wear it even when he stops training or slacks of or something because he did prove that he was capable of what is required.

In the end it should be everyones own problem if they want to wear a BB and then get beaten by a 3 Kyu or something

Cheers

[kensei]

In my opinion once someone has earned his BB he should be allowed to wear it even when he stops training or slacks of or something because he did prove that he was capable of what is required.

I dont really agree, with all due respect! If someone has taken years (more than 4) off then how can they even remember the Kata they should know? I think they should wear something to symbolize that they are at a newbie level yet again and may not recall all they need to know in the sylabus.

We ask that they wear a white belt till they show they remember all the basics, Kata and kumite they need to get at least Shodan. I have told Nidans to throw on a white belt for six months after they were gone for a year!

Its not a form of disrespect but more the opposite. If you have been out for a long time then you could get hurt very bad if you go up against a hungry young Brown belt that is thinking you can handle a bit of pressure as a Nidan or shodan and you cant remember the first Kata! and what if students start watching you for cues on what to do?

In the end it should be everyones own problem if they want to wear a BB and then get beaten by a 3 Kyu or something

Another reason, as I suggested that you should throw on a white belt and save a bit of face by admitting you have a bit of rust to work through.

We also had a situation were a Shito Ryu Nidan was trying to grade JKA Shotokan Shodan and he wore his black belt from day one in the Dojo...he was HORRIBLE and when he tested our instructor told him he may not be ready.....this was more than 25 years ago mind you...but Yaguchi Sensei was very UNDER IMPRESSED and failed him outright. He said "much more time needed" and left it at that. He also told my Sensei to make him wear a purple belt! The guy left!

When you are a Dan level in one style, it does not earn you the right to wear a Black belt when you train .....in any style....ever! I wear my white belt in BJJ with Pride and my Black belt in Karate with equal pride!

[T3chnopsycho]

In my opinion once someone has earned his BB he should be allowed to wear it even when he stops training or slacks of or something because he did prove that he was capable of what is required.

I dont really agree, with all due respect! If someone has taken years (more than 4) off then how can they even remember the Kata they should know? I think they should wear something to symbolize that they are at a newbie level yet again and may not recall all they need to know in the sylabus.

We ask that they wear a white belt till they show they remember all the basics, Kata and kumite they need to get at least Shodan. I have told Nidans to throw on a white belt for six months after they were gone for a year!

Its not a form of disrespect but more the opposite. If you have been out for a long time then you could get hurt very bad if you go up against a hungry young Brown belt that is thinking you can handle a bit of pressure as a Nidan or shodan and you cant remember the first Kata! and what if students start watching you for cues on what to do?

I do understand your opinion. But my thinking is that even if maybe a nidan or so was gone for a long time. Something you train like MA (If you really stick to it and not just once in 2 weeks training) then you remember that even after such a long break. Of course you don't know all katas anymore and you're not as good as you were before but you still have a lot of knowledge you just need some trainings to bring it back to the front.

Of course as a BB you have your responsibility towards the lower belts in terms of being a rolemodel and someone with knowledge that can explain etc. From that point of view I have the same thinking as you. But otherwise well I think I explained myself

In the end it should be everyones own problem if they want to wear a BB and then get beaten by a 3 Kyu or something

Another reason, as I suggested that you should throw on a white belt and save a bit of face by admitting you have a bit of rust to work through.

We also had a situation were a Shito Ryu Nidan was trying to grade JKA Shotokan Shodan and he wore his black belt from day one in the Dojo...he was HORRIBLE and when he tested our instructor told him he may not be ready.....this was more than 25 years ago mind you...but Yaguchi Sensei was very UNDER IMPRESSED and failed him outright. He said "much more time needed" and left it at that. He also told my Sensei to make him wear a purple belt! The guy left!

When you are a Dan level in one style, it does not earn you the right to wear a Black belt when you train .....in any style....ever! I wear my white belt in BJJ with Pride and my Black belt in Karate with equal pride!

Well that of course is a totally different thing. I totally agree that if you start a different style or even MA you definently start at White. Because white symbolizes that you are a beginner and you are a beginner in every new style even if you have studied and mastered one style (example: Kimura Shukokai) for 40 years you are still a beginner in another style (example: Shotokan).

And even more if you are a Karate 5th dan and start something different like Aikido or Judo.

Well I think in the end everybody has a different opinion

Cheers

T3chnopsycho

[Lupin1]

Should all the millions of adults who can't remember how to do Algebra have their HS Diploma taken away?

According to my instructor, in our school, the second you stop training, you put yourself into "honorary black belt" status. Once a black belt, always a black belt, but that doesn't mean they're always going to be training on a black belt level. We have people who stop by every so often after not training for years-- they wear their black belts and they do what they can. No one questions them and no one expects them to hang with the people who come every week. And I as a brown belt sure as heck would never think to disrespect one of them just because they haven't trained in years. To me, they've earned the black belt and it's theirs and I'll respect them even as I'm helping them remember their white belt kata because odds are, with muscle memory being what it is, they're probably still showing better form than I am.

[DWx]

With these sorts of discussions I think they always come back to the same question: What is a blackbelt?

Is it a qualification that you achieve or is it something that you are?

[kensei]

Well I think in the end everybody has a different opinion

Cheers

T3chnopsycho

I totally agree, And even if I dont practice your way of thinking, I respect your point of view, and I never said it was wrong, in fact its more of a "what ever your group does...do it" kind of thing.

And yes, we all have a different opinion on this, or different practice. None are wrong, just different!