Can Full Time Martial Arts Instructors Have Nice Things?

[bushido_man96]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

[ps1]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

Fair enough, Brian. Keep in mind i did say that one or two of these things does not make a McDojo. I would agree that a 9 belt system is not excessive. However, there are ATA dojos that have far more than that. It just depends on the franchise owner.

[TreeKicker]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

Fair enough, Brian. Keep in mind i did say that one or two of these things does not make a McDojo. I would agree that a 9 belt system is not excessive. However, there are ATA dojos that have far more than that. It just depends on the franchise owner.

Does it matter how many belts someone has or gets? Unless you think their students are lagging behind because to large of a percentage of their training time is taken up with belt testing, I don't see how it matters.

If you treat your purple belts like they treat their striped belts, or if they get their 7th belt with the same amount of effort that your students get their 3rd belt, that just makes your 3rd and their 7th belts equivalent. It doesn't mean that anyone learned anything different.

Do people resent the frequency with which some people get patted on the back?

[ps1]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

Fair enough, Brian. Keep in mind i did say that one or two of these things does not make a McDojo. I would agree that a 9 belt system is not excessive. However, there are ATA dojos that have far more than that. It just depends on the franchise owner.

Does it matter how many belts someone has or gets? Unless you think their students are lagging behind because to large of a percentage of their training time is taken up with belt testing, I don't see how it matters.

If you treat your purple belts like they treat their striped belts, or if they get their 7th belt with the same amount of effort that your students get their 3rd belt, that just makes your 3rd and their 7th belts equivalent. It doesn't mean that anyone learned anything different.

Do people resent the frequency with which some people get patted on the back?

No. Again, I'm being taken out of context. This is only one of many things that COULD go into a school being construed a McDojo. Please read my original post so you can understand the context.

[sensei8]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

But, I understand why the ATA has a camouflage belt and why there are 9 colored belts. Without the camouflage belt, their belt system would only have 8 colored belts. The number 9 is significant and auspicious in Korea; therefore, the ATA being a Korean MA, it makes perfect since to me why the ATA has 9 colored belts and 9 black belt ranks.

[bushido_man96]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

Fair enough, Brian. Keep in mind i did say that one or two of these things does not make a McDojo. I would agree that a 9 belt system is not excessive. However, there are ATA dojos that have far more than that. It just depends on the franchise owner.

I haven't seen many ATA schools lately, so I don't know what changes have been made. If they've added belt colors, I'm a bit shocked. My old instructor just got his 5th degree in the ATA, so I'll have to ask him a bit about it. If they have, then that's too bad. One of the good things about the ATA is that they aren't afraid to make changes and try different things. One of the bad things is that at times they don't leave well enough alone.

I also saw where you mentioned that 1 or 2 of your list wouldn't relegate a school to a McDojo. But, I also know the ATA gets a lot of the McDojo fingers pointed in their direction, too, and I don't know what other associations have a camouflage belt.

[MasterPain]

Personally, I think camo belts are cool. Then again, I think Richard Harrison was an awesome ninja.

All I really care about is effectiveness. If you can back it up, belt colors aren't an issue. I wish I was worthy of wearing Gene Lebell's pink gi.

[ShoriKid]

MP,

I'm sorry, but none of us are worthy or that manly.

[ps1]

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

I have to take issue with this point. I was in the ATA, and the ATA has a camouflage belt. I think most people are more irritated that its not one of the "traditional" belt colors out there.

The ATA has a 9 belt system before reaching black belt status. Each rank has basics, forms, and one-steps to learn for the test. I don't think a 9 or 10 colored belt system is too out of hand now days, nor do I think that it would necessarily mean the school is a McDojo.

Fair enough, Brian. Keep in mind i did say that one or two of these things does not make a McDojo. I would agree that a 9 belt system is not excessive. However, there are ATA dojos that have far more than that. It just depends on the franchise owner.

I haven't seen many ATA schools lately, so I don't know what changes have been made. If they've added belt colors, I'm a bit shocked. My old instructor just got his 5th degree in the ATA, so I'll have to ask him a bit about it. If they have, then that's too bad. One of the good things about the ATA is that they aren't afraid to make changes and try different things. One of the bad things is that at times they don't leave well enough alone.

I also saw where you mentioned that 1 or 2 of your list wouldn't relegate a school to a McDojo. But, I also know the ATA gets a lot of the McDojo fingers pointed in their direction, too, and I don't know what other associations have a camouflage belt.

You may be shocked to see what they do. My friend, who is a BJJ purple at my instructor's school and a 5th degree ATA, teaches at his instructor's ATA school.

He tells me all the time he only does it for the extra money. They guarntee a rank promotion every 3 months. They have 18 belts before black belt. Basically, each of the 9 ranks has a belt that's half one color and half the next. They also give out stripes to each belt. The stripes are just pieces of electrical tape and the school charges the students $50 to "test" for them. The only contracts they offer are 1 and 3 years in length.

That's my experience with the ATA. But I'm understanding to the idea that it's a franchise. So the head of the association really has little or no control over what's done in the individual schools. The sad part is, this guy has 5 ATA schools in the area and his son has 2 of his own. Needless to say, he gives your association a horrible reputation in the area.

[Patrick]

Thanks for the replies, ps1, ShoriKid, TreeKicker, vantheman, Alex, Bob, Danielle, blacknebula, Brian and Bill. I've enjoyed reading them all and find this discussion really interesting.

My point is asking this question was to see how people feel about martial arts instructors having nice things and, some would say, being successful in life, not just in the martial arts. Not so much for it to become another "what makes a McDojo," but maybe that is partially inevitable.

What do you call it if an instructor gives poor quality instruction, gives belts out like they mean nothing and has a very cheap monthly rate? Is that also a McDojo?

Bob, I actually think your position is probably pretty popular. How I read your post was: I am full time, I live a good life, I run my school like a business because that is what it is and I charge what I am comfortable with. I think most people probably identify with that - everyone just has a different comfort level as what as what they feel they should charge, based on the factors that go into it.

I'm not really advocating for anything as I don't have any skin in the game, so to speak, I'm just fascinated by the discussion.

Thanks,

Patrick