Can Full Time Martial Arts Instructors Have Nice Things?

[Patrick]

Hey all,

We've had a rash of "am I in a McDojo?" type of threads pop up recently. In reading these threads, as a non-martial artist, one of the things I find most interesting is the opinions about how much an instructor or school owner can charge for classes while still being a "true" martial artist.

A reasonable portion of martial artists feel that an instructor should only charge enough to keep the lights on and live a very basic existence. Low-end car, smallest house that you can get away with, etc.

There seems to be an idea that is fairly prevalent which says that if you charge an amount that is deemed to be unreasonable, then you are greedy and not a "real" martial artist - you don't adhere to the values. I've seen people say things like "that's not a martial artist, that's a business man."

It made me curious to find out, specifically, how everyone felt about this. In other fields, when we work with people who are at the top of the field, we expect to pay more. When we have more of their individualized attention (small class sizes, direct consulting, etc.), we expect to pay more. When they have a nice facility in a good neighborhood, we expect to pay more. When we live in an area with a higher cost of living, we expect to pay more. But it seems like, for some, the martial arts is immune from this and operates on a different standard of principles, which is one of the things that makes the martial arts interesting and unique.

But the notion that a "real" instructor should only charge whatever they can to get by, to scrape by, makes me wonder what "real," highly talented martial arts instructors are actually allowed to have in life. For example:

Are they allowed to have a nice car, for them and their family?

Are they allowed to have a nice house, for them and their family?

Are they allowed to put money away for retirement?

Are they allowed to have an emergency fund for the unexpected stuff that happens in life? Or should they just rally for donations when it occurs?

Are they allowed to give their kids what they might never have had?

Are they allowed to help their kids with college (not even pay for, but help), at a top tier school? Or only lower end schools?

Are they allowed to have an iPhone and/or an iPad? A big plasma/LCD TV? Are those luxury items?

Are they allowed to take vacations a couple of times a year?

I'm sure you can come up with other examples, but you get the idea.

And if they are allowed these things, and running the school is what they do full time, where should the money come from?

Some people say that no one should be a full time teacher. I get the point, but that seems to simplify to the point where it enforces a rigid standard on everyone. In some cases, I'm not even sure that is reasonable. For example: running a school can be a full time job. Is it only a job for volunteers? If someone wants that to be what they do full time because they are passionate about it, why shouldn't it create a good lifestyle for them if they are good at it? Furthermore, who are you to say it shouldn't?

If you enjoy business and are passionate about martial arts, is it bad to combine those and use your business acumen to grow your school and your martial arts knowledge to ensure that your instruction is of the highest quality?

If they are offering quality instruction they are proud of and their students are happy, why can't they charge $x? If they want to limit class size and charge a premium for that, does that simply go against the philosophy of the martial arts? For example, if someone wants to charge $1,000 (just to throw a figure out) a month in New York City and limit a class size to 3, meaning 3 people paying that, and everyone is getting value out of it, is that bad?

Can a real, true, genuine full time martial arts instructor have nice things and still be a real, true, genuine full time martial arts instructor? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

Patrick

[ps1]

I think you bring up an excellent point, Patrick. It stems from people automatically calling any successful school, that has alot of kids and charges high rates a McDojo.

If an instructor teaches martial arts full time I certainly hope they are successful and have some nice things.

For me, here's what gives a school McDojo Status:

1. Guaranteed rank promotions every "x" months. Also included would be a guaranteed rank by time "x."

2. Very long term contracts only. Requiring a person to sign for anything over 6 months is a bit excessive.

3. High price in combination with very restrictive schedule. If you're paying 150/month, you should not be limited to 2 classes per week.

4. Children teaching (by themselves) adult classes. It's one thing to learn responsibility by assisting the instructor. It's completely different to put a 16 yr old in charge of teaching adults without supervision.

5. Claiming to teach systems you've never fully learned. There are people that have learned a few joint locks..so they say they know jiu-jitsu. Or they know a low line round house and claim they do Muay Thai. It's fraud...and it's wrong.

6. Excessive number of belts that are added in specifically for the purpose of having more tests. For example: some places have a camouflage belt.

7. Closed minded instruction. McDojos are often run by instructors with poor confidence in their product. So they restrict the student's ability to train elsewhere. The instructor tells students that everything they need to know is contained in the McDojo. This not only limits students knowledge base, but also breeds the same into the student.

8. Nickle and Diming the students. It's one thing to have special programs available (black belt club, competition club ect). But some schools go so far as to require students to buy every piece of merchandise they offer. I visited a school that does not allow the student to show up wearing anything other than the school sweatpants and t-shirt and had to pack their equipment in a school bag and all their equipment had the school logo.

9. Claims of combat effectiveness in schools that never train in an alive environment.

Of course no single one of these makes a McDojo. But as more and more of them begin to combine, the school begins aligning itself with McDojo status.

Notice that none of these speak to the way the instructor lives or the possessions he/she acquires. To assume a martial arts instructor should lead a "humble" life is absurd. I fail to see how driving a Mercedes or owning the entire "i" line of products relates to their ability to teach martial arts.

[ShoriKid]

An instructor has every right to make a living and a good one too. If they are honest about what they are offering, I don't have a problem with them charging higher rates if the quality of instruction and area and facilities dictate as much. I don't know where the idea that a martial arts instructor couldn't charge for their services. But I'll be hanged if it isn't one of those things that just won't go away.

[TreeKicker]

McDojo is a term used by 50 guys on the internet. It is never going to gain traction with the main stream because real people get business.

[vantheman]

Maybe I am oversimplifying a bit, but if your school has a very good instructor, than I think it is reasonable for him to charge a higher premium and having a higher-class lifestyle. People will pay more for a good instructor, and if an instructor is really dedicated to teaching martial arts (and is good at it), I think he deserves some profit.

[tallgeese]

Patrick makes a good point. There's no reason that a martial arts instructor shouldn't make a good living, and we shouldn't slam on those that do. I am pretty much along the same lines as ps1 on the breakdown of it. As long as they are teaching something they are actually qualified on, why not?

I have reached a point where I don't even really care if they are running a kids belt factory with zero combative application. As long as that's what their flyer says, that's fine. I used to get really worked up if martial arts school had zero fight relevance in their practice. Now I kinda feel that the arts are big enough for several applications. Just because my focus and what I choose to do is largely defined by real world application and everything I do now isn't completely defined by that.

It's the false advertising that bothers me. The promise of combat capability based only on line drills, no contact, and all theoretical technique. I'm also appalled by people who teach outside their sphere of experience as an expert. I've mentioned it before, after the UFC boom in the early 90's you saw a whole crop of schools claiming to have "discovered" grappling in their kata and after watching some video started teaching. This promotes poor tactics that are less than effective.

Now, I'm all about expanding you're knowledge base, so go to seminars, study different arts and integrate those skills, but give credit to where it came from.

Once we clear those factors, I think instructors should charge (and hence make) what the market can bear. This varies and someone shouldn't be beat on for charging 150-200 per month in metropolitan areas just because rural schools are charging 50 or less. It's not comparing apples to apples. We have to remember that these people need to not only keep the lights on, and make enough to support themselves, but also continue capital upgrade to their facilities, provide for their families, and cover insurance (health and business) which are not unsubstantial in nature. Factor in the high cost of running a business and suddenly the math is not a great for them as you'd think.

Would I be put off if my coach pulled up to class in a high end car? Nope. Or had a magnificent home? Again, no. If his quality of instruction is high enough for me to pay him the rates that bring those fruits and it matches with my goals well enough, why should I begrudge him what I pay him.

[sensei8]

Teaching; this is all I've ever known and this is all that I've ever done, and in that, I've earned a very comfortable living while doing it, and I don't apologize for it. My profit margin allows me to live quite nicely, yet, my tuition isn't in the stratosphere.

I teach full-time, and this to me, is not a hobby. My every intention when I first opened the Kyuodan dojo was to be profitable, and for me to become that, I decided right from the start to treat my dojo as a business because that's exactly what it is.

No matter how it's decorated on the outside, it's on the inside where profit is made. Through every trial and every tribulation that I've endured in making my dojo and myself successful, I've made sure that I was honest with my students, my retail customers, the community, my fellow MAists, my family, and with myself across the board.

Here at KF, I've stated it quite clear...I'm no fan of schools that charge $100-$200 a month for tuition, and while their tuition might meet what the market bears, I've stated that I don't understand why they charge so much because after all, it's just the MA, and in that, it's a want and not a need. This position isn't popular, nor is it acceptable, nor is it understood.

My position truly came about when the USA was in the bowels of an economic downturn, however, quite a lot of schools weren't trying to meet the needs of their students who were facing some tough financial decisions for their families, and in that, these schools either maintained the cost or they raise the cost, instead of lowering the cost to help their students meet their budgets. To me that was wrong, but having said that, it's my problem and I'll deal with it some how and some way to try to understand the 'why's' about the whole ordeal.

During those economic uncertainties I lowered my tuition down to the basement, ended all testing fees, and I offered more retail discounts; however, I still made profit each and every quarter. I did whatever I could to help my students/retail customers afford the want; the MA. To me, the MA is a want and not a need. Students, imho, don't need the MA, it's a luxury. Food, a home, a job, clothes, gas for the car, utilities, and the like, these are things that students of the MA need. I wanted to help them provide for their families without them feeling that the MA was an unwanted albatross around their necks.

Therefore, I'm extremely thankful to every student and to every retail customer that graces the doors of the Kyuodan dojo, and I will not take advantage of them by raising my tuition to a level that vexes me.

What Patrick's OP speaks about is solid across the board, and in that, I respect what he's speaking about wholeheartedly. Every instructor has every right to earn whatever profit they can, and in that, I don't fault them for doing whatever it is that helps them reach a profitable bottom line on their P&L.

Not everything I champion for is right for others, but it feels right for me. If I've offended and/or hurt those instructors with my direct and unkind words; please forgive me...please! Sometimes I just hate myself!!

Therefore, from this time forward, I will not speak judgmentally about those instructors as I have in the past. Profit is the right of everyone everywhere, and I won't begrudge them either.

[DWx]

Good question. My short answer is yes: instructors should be able to live comfortably if they are good and successful at what they do.

I think the problem is the word McDojo is an overused term and it seems a lot of school's get tarred by this brush if they charge a bit more even if the training is brilliant. A lot of people see higher prices and assume the school is just there to make money so they must be a McDojo.

A reasonable portion of martial artists feel that an instructor should only charge enough to keep the lights on and live a very basic existence. Low-end car, smallest house that you can get away with, etc.

There seems to be an idea that is fairly prevalent which says that if you charge an amount that is deemed to be unreasonable, then you are greedy and not a "real" martial artist - you don't adhere to the values. I've seen people say things like "that's not a martial artist, that's a business man."

Seems to me a lot of students have a sense of entitlement. That they should be able to go to a school and learn martial arts without paying a lot. Truth is Martial Arts are not an essential in life and Joe Bloggs sensei should be able to charge what he likes based on what his service is worth.

I suppose the underlying reason I'm answering yes is because of my own instructor. He teaches 6 days a week, ~15 hours a week, and makes a living from Martial Arts. He does live comfortably but not extravagantly and I have no problem with this because the guy is very good at what he does and works hard. Worth every penny I pay to train at the school.

[blacknebula]

I think that any instructor has a right to have a profitable business. As long as I am receiving fair value for my money I really don't care what their standard of living is like. The idea of someone living humbly because they devote their lives to their ideals is ridiculous as far as I am concerned. It is not mutually exclusive. And frankly, if I compare the instructor credentials and experience level, overhead costs, etc. of my karate to other activities that my children and I do, I'd be willing to pay way more than my Sensei currently charges!

[bushido_man96]

Prior to reading any responses, I want to say that I think you have made a very good point, Patrick, and to hold Martial Arts instructors to different standards than other career choices isn't right. Things aren't like they were in the 1600's, no matter where anyone lives, and things change. The evolution of the Martial Arts business of today is no different. If an instructor is a good instructor, then it should be rewarding for that person to teach.