Yet Another McDojo Thread

[pdbnb]

I've posted this in another topic as a reply, but opening my own topic about it just in case.

[Pasted from my Yahoo! Answers question for convenience]

I'm thinking of joining a TKD/Hapkido/TKB club that runs classes in my small English country town, but after reading up on McDojos, I'm still not sure whether this one counts as one.

To wit:

"IT'S A MCDOJO!" arguments:

- Registration fee + monthly installments & contract, even though they teach in village and school halls.

- "Self-confidence, self-respect, etc" used as selling points

- They organise birthday parties (?!)

- 'Family' used as selling point

- Kiddie classes have a franchise-like name.

- Emphasis on forms and patterns.

- Instructors under 40 who are black belts.

- I overheard the instructor tell a parent there was to be a grading early next month...

"IT'S NOT A MCDOJO!" arguments:

- ...but he then told the kid not to take it if they weren't ready.

- At least a couple of the kids in the Juniors class are genuinely skilled,and the class as a whole is made to work and behave.

- As far as I can tell, the entire operation is run by two, maybe three people (I'm not sure whether the Hapkido instructor is one of the TKD instructors or a third person)

- The instructor is a genuinely nice guy and not an egomaniac.

- The instructor tells people to watch the Korean guys on YouTube rather than him.

- No pressure to pay the fees - I'll be going to my third class tomorrow and am still not registered and haven't paid a penny.

- Free suit, license, membership and insurance offered with the registration fee.

- Sparring does take place (although with pads).

- Few students above green belt (I only spotted a couple).

- No kid black belts (but there is a kid red belt).

- "No student is turned away" stated on their website.

- For a little bit more money a month, you can attend unlimited classes rather than just 1/2 a week.

What do you guys think? Is this a McDojo or isn't it? I'm only going there to keep fit and brush up on my martial arts (I got to borderline brown belt in a different martial art as a kid), but I'd hate to finance an operation of that sort.

[/paste]

So far the contract seems to be the main point of contention. The fees range from about £30-£40 a month, plus a one-time registration fee of £20.

Are these fees acceptable? Is this a McDojo? Any help would be appreciated, as I have no other classes readily available in my area that don't involve travel.

[Wastelander]

It's a commercial school, certainly, but not necessarily a McDojo from the sounds of it--the instructors are teaching martial arts to earn a living, and that will be reflected in how they market their school, but as long as they teach well and invest in their students then I don't see a major issue. I will point out that it is not unusual for black belt ranked instructors to be under 40 years old, and most "traditional" martial arts focus on forms/patterns.

In any case, it sounds like you like the instructors, who seem like open, accommodating people, the fees are quite reasonable, and feel of the environment is a good one, so you don't really need to justify it any more than that. Enjoy your training!

[MasterPain]

Fees sound fair if I'm correct in thinking pounds are close in value to US dollars. A black belt that takes more than 10 years to earn is rare except in BJJ, which is known for it's quality control. Even there 8 years to black belt isn't unheard of, so expecting all black belts to be over 40 isn't right. If the mid ranks are skilled and you get on well with everyone, you should be in a good place.

While I may not like the idea of contracts, I HATE to spend a month teaching very basic things and taking up my training time just to have the student quit. That may be their logic, considering that they aren't charging huge fees.

Don't hold the kid's class selling points against them either. Kid's classes have to be fun or they don't work. The birthday parties encourage friendship and social skills, a great benefit especially considering that the kids drawn to martial arts are often the types not drawn to team sports and such. Kid's classes have to teach more than just how to be an efficient killing machine.

As far as forms, most traditional arts are built around them. If you don't care for it, perhaps look into an MMA gym. They tend to be just about everywhere.

[pdbnb]

The fees in US$ would amount to $50-$65 pcm ($65 for the unlimited lessons).

My 'against' arguments aren't personal - they were based around articles I read which mentioned those points as sure-fire indicators of a McDojo.

Hell, when I was little I was part of a kid's class, and then when I transitioned to adult class (at 14) I struggled to keep up because they had 2.5hr training (part of the reason why I quit). And my school definitely wasn't a belt factory - I was there about 4 years and got to brown belt testing level, plus I was told to hold off on taking the test, one of the few to be 'held back' this way. I was just using those points as general indicators, based on articles and forums on the subject I perused.

[JusticeZero]

The commercial stuff is only a Mc sign if the quality of the teaching is shaky and students are getting belts that they dont seem very ready for. Legitemate schools should not be tarred with the same brush just because they are trying to pay their bills.

[Zaine]

The commercial stuff is only a Mc sign if the quality of the teaching is shaky and students are getting belts that they dont seem very ready for. Legitemate schools should not be tarred with the same brush just because they are trying to pay their bills.

Agreed. Those fees seem reasonable as well. Plus, in relation to the name of the kids program, they usually have some sort silly name to suggest fun while training.

[sensei8]

The commercial stuff is only a Mc sign if the quality of the teaching is shaky and students are getting belts that they dont seem very ready for. Legitemate schools should not be tarred with the same brush just because they are trying to pay their bills.

Solid post!!

[DWx]

"IT'S A MCDOJO!" arguments:

- Registration fee + monthly installments & contract, even though they teach in village and school halls.

- "Self-confidence, self-respect, etc" used as selling points

- They organise birthday parties (?!)

- 'Family' used as selling point

- Kiddie classes have a franchise-like name.

- Emphasis on forms and patterns.

- Instructors under 40 who are black belts.

- I overheard the instructor tell a parent there was to be a grading early next month...

With respect, none of these things scream McDojo to me. Addressing each of these points:

An annual or monthly fee is common as it a) guarantes income for the instructor to cover his overheads and b) most likely will cover some sort of insurance fee and an association/organisation membership fee. Besides which, the amounts you mention are in line with most TKD schools in the UK that I know of.

WRT self-confidence and self-respect as selling points, what's wrong with that? That is a selling point and a lot of people are attracted to martial arts for these reasons.

I don't know many schools that do bday parties but I know plenty that offer a family training environment and have special kids classes. Again it's a selling point and a lot of people get started in MAs because it's something they can do wuth their kids. But that type of environment isn't for everyone so if that's not what you're looking for, maybe a different school would be better.

As has already been said, most Korean styles (and schools of Japanese styles like Karate) will focus on forms because that is at the core of the style. Something else like MMA or Muay Thai etc. would be better if that's not what you want from your style. (BTW Since you called them "patterns", is it an ITF school? I can tell you more about the style if you want?)

Instructors under 40? Ouch I'm 22 and I assist at my club and am looking to get my own class within the next couple of years. I've also plenty of friends my age that teach at their respective schools. I'd be concerned if the chief instructor was a 15 yr old but you won't find many schools with over 40s only teaching and even if you do, that is in no way an indicator of quality.

Scheduled gradings are a common practice in TKD. Doesn't mean that every student in the school would be invited to grade or that everyone who does test will pass.

At the end of the day whether they are a McDojo or not comes down to quality. Are they teaching quality Martial Arts or are they just making money?

[bushido_man96]

I wish people would realize that we aren't teaching Martial Arts in Okinawa in the 1600s anymore. Times change, things, changes, ideas and methodologies change, and this isn't always a bad thing. Kids classes are geared differently than adult classes because kids learn differently. Parents like to see the kids learning about respect and things like this. And monthly contracts are helpful to instructors who don't have to worry about collecting a check from all members every month and keeping track of who's paid and who hasn't. No one wants to sign a contract with a Martial Arts school, but everyone will sign a contract for their cell phone plan. For the most part, its a matter of convenience. I've been on a contract plan for the past 5 years or so. Its nice, because I know my training is paid for through direct deposit, and I just show up to class and only worry about training.

[Dobbersky]

I wish people would realize that we aren't teaching Martial Arts in Okinawa in the 1600s anymore. Times change, things, changes, ideas and methodologies change, and this isn't always a bad thing. Kids classes are geared differently than adult classes because kids learn differently. Parents like to see the kids learning about respect and things like this. And monthly contracts are helpful to instructors who don't have to worry about collecting a check from all members every month and keeping track of who's paid and who hasn't. No one wants to sign a contract with a Martial Arts school, but everyone will sign a contract for their cell phone plan. For the most part, its a matter of convenience. I've been on a contract plan for the past 5 years or so. Its nice, because I know my training is paid for through direct deposit, and I just show up to class and only worry about training.

There's a different reason for a cell phone. Most people use daily etc. Many kids can get bored and then stuck causing unnecessary issues in class because mum signed him up for a program. I've seen it happen, and it's frustrating to the other members.

I offer Standing Orders, UK - similar to Direct Debit but more control to the account holder, but most preferred to pay cash, and everyone pays without any issues.

What you got to look at is;

If you live in a nice area where most are working, Programs are great as the parents have a cheaper kindergarten for the kids after school so they can carry on with their workloads

If you live in an area where most are unemployed, pay as you go are more popular as they don't have the financial backing to pay upfront for programs or stick to Direct Debits etc.

I'm a "realist" not an "Okinawan wish I was" even my classes are taught on English predominantly too