Question About What Style Should I Choose.

[Zaine]

although some Uechi-ryu I've seen has been "lighter" than others. Good luck.

This really hasn't been my experience with Uechi-Ryu. Some might do it differently but in the area I was taught Shorin-Ryu we had a particular Uechi-Ryu school that was super hardcore. From their conditioning to their techniques it was pretty intense. Fun, don't get me wrong, but intense.

As to Rockford's latest post I don't see much difference in brawling and MMA fights. Generally to me they all end up either on the ground or some kind of brawl. It can be fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but the similarities are pretty striking.

[MasterPain]

As to Rockford's latest post I don't see much difference in brawling and MMA fights. Generally to me they all end up either on the ground or some kind of brawl. It can be fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but the similarities are pretty striking.

Not sure if you're watching bad MMA, or just don't have the grappling knowledge to understand the difference.

[Wastelander]

Thank you!!! Yes, Goju-Ryu is awesome. It is the most realistic style besides Kyokushin-shinkai, but the fundamental problem with Goju is that it's blocks are not very practical for the in-the-pocket style of striking it advocates, and it's ranged striking is seriously limited.

I need a style that "suffocates" my oponent in the pocket, but also has great ranged striking and a more evasive counter-striking style rather than an aggressive striking style that emphasizes going for the kill in mid-range and using powerful blocks as defense, with a heavy emphasis on physicality to absorb the blows.

I have fought in amateur MMA, and I can tell you from personal experience that staying in mid range is the most stupid thing you can do in a fight, as you are basically putting yourself in position for your oponent to knock you out. I have done Muay Thai for MMA, and I don't like the emphasis on mid range fighting and blocking your opponents strikes rather than evading them, as it demands sheer physicality. Kyokushin is also like that. In defense of Muay Thai, it also puts emphasis on clinching, which is awesome. I don't like brawling styles like Muay Thai and Kyokushin. I like to smother my opponent in the pocket with a flurry of strikes or wearing/KOing them with ranged strikes. I am looking for a style that has these characteristics.

I disagree with your assessment of the blocking in Goju-Ryu, but I will also point out that many "blocking" movements are not actually intended to be used as blocks. Regardless of that fact, however, you said you didn't mind some "impractical" techniques, and the fact that they pressure test their system through close-range contact sparring should weed out what is practical and what is not, anyway.

The thing that you have to remember about traditional Okinawan styles like that, though, is that they were designed for self defense purposes, not sport fighting, so they were never intended for fighting at long-range or moving around an attacker--it was meant for dealing with short, brutal altercations from medium- to close-range because that's where self defense situations occur. This is how most Okinawan styles are, although they go about it different ways. You can find people who do Okinawan styles that also teach sport fighting at long range, but you are going to have to look at individual instructors to find that, not styles. My instructor teaches a traditional Okinawan style, and also happens to be a very good long-range striker

As to Rockford's latest post I don't see much difference in brawling and MMA fights. Generally to me they all end up either on the ground or some kind of brawl. It can be fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but the similarities are pretty striking.

Not sure if you're watching bad MMA, or just don't have the grappling knowledge to understand the difference.

I'm with MP--there is a vast difference between untrained brawling and an MMA fight between trained fighters.

[Zaine]

It has been awhile since I've watched MMA in general, but it was always my impression. Never said that the grappling wasn't good, just that I wasn't a huge fan of the standing game.

[kensei]

Going to toss my two cents worth in here for you Rockford,

First off you should NEVER EVER say "What Style" Like everyone teaches the same stuff and works the same things in one style. I have seen Kyokushin guys that did "full contact" like they were made of glass and did not want to get chipped and I Have seen Tai Chi classes that would just about kill you if you were to go in unawair.

Dont think Style, think DOJO and INSTRUCTOR over STYLE! But I digress!

I want to study a style that fits certain characteristics, and I have been unable to find much information around me or on the web. Can any of you guys elucidate to me the differences between styles, both betwen Okinawan and Japanese, as well the differences between them all as far as stances, footwork, if they have a blocking or evasive philosophy of defending against the opponents attacks, what styles are aggressive or instead counter-striking, if they emphasize ranged attacks or in the pocket strikes, etcetera.

You will find that the whole Style thing goes out the window in most situations. I am a Shotokan guy that has trained with guys in other styles and to be frank...when it came to Kumite the individuals I worked out with were almost all the same..Kata and drills were alot different but having worked out with Wado, Chito, Goju, Kyokushin, Uechi and other styles, once the gloves are on we all kick with our legs and block and punch with our arms. It was more "how good" the other guy was over style.

But to make some generalizations, Okinawan based Karate tends to be more focused on details like Joint locks and manipulations with lots of conditioning...while Japanese are more about using Kata for training the "Gas tank" and less about small manipulations and pin point striking, more about bigger movements and more striking.

And that is a horrible and quickly written generalization.

I am looking for a style with the following characteristics:

- Okinawan rather than Japanese, as I prefer the traditional arts always.

Totally off base here. First off the Okinawan Karate is only about a generation or two older than Japanese Karate. the traditions are also very close together because of the close cultural traditions that Japan and Okinawa have. The major differnce in cultures would be that Okinawa also allowed China to influence it slightly and Japan shunned Chinese culture for many generations.

The Traditional arts are both from Okinawa and Japan when you talk about "Karate", They just tend to be a bit different in how they approach things..sometimes...depending on the style...instructor...Dojo....

- Full-contact sparring and effective techniques for real combat. That is, I want a style that allows me to kick butt if needed, and not one that only has beautiful choreographies.

Why do people think you need to do full contact sparring to be effective? I worked the door at local pubs/bars for years and we never did full contact sparring and my Karate served me well...in fact we had to take out boxers, kick boxers, TKD and full contact fighters all the time and we never had any issues.

You could be in a full contact school and still be the worlds worst fighter! Its not the style but the guy in it. Having said that dont fool yourself into thinking that letting yourself get beat up at the club makes you a better fighter really. The key elements are impact training, sound fundamentals and strategies in fighting and often...Standing thier and getting hit....Not a sound strategy!

Think more about styles that teach you to block/dodge/move and counter as being much more effective than one that says "Stand their and take one to give one"...trust me if that were the kind of guy I was facing on the street...I would LOVE THAT!

Full contact...not always the best way to go...besides if I am going to mug you I would much rather see the guy limping along and holding his ribs with black eyes than the guy that looks fit and has a spring in his step! (read if you get beat down at class all the time your body will not heal fast enough to actually defend yourself).

- Not Kyokushin! It strikes me as being more similar to Muay Thai than karate, and I don't like that.

Again, depends on the Dojo, some of them dont really do Kata, dont really focus on the traditional side and end up being a kick boxing club with some Karate name. Kyokushin also has off shoots like Enishin/Ashihara Karate, Budokaido, Godokai, Seido Juku, Musokai, Shidokan and Seidokaikan. All of these are what we call "knock down" styles and focus more on conditioning and kumite than on form and Kata.

Its strange becaue if you had not said no because it was to "muay thai" Like then I would have read your first statement and thought "oh, he wants to actually hit someone...well he wants Kyokushin then".

- Needs to have wicked kicks, as I am looking to increase my kicking repertoire.

Depends on the instructor. IN our organization (local) I teach the "normal amount of kicks" for a Shotokan Dojo with the focus on the big five! and one of our instructors who is a very gifted kicker teaches more than that and his classes are MOSTLY kicking drills ext...and yet another instructor has bad hips and asks me to teach his club the kicking most of the time while he focuses on front kicking...I kid you not!

Also, some clubs/styles focus on head kicking like Kyokushin and others on more useable kicking like Uechi and Goju. And Uechi uses a "Toe Kick" that scares the living hell out of me....because it can break yoru own foot!

It depends on the Style....club...organization...instructor....

-Emphasizes ranged attacks or close ones, as striking in the mid-ranged is one of the most stupid things you can do - speaking from personal experience here.

Actually, having had 15 years in tournaments and about 10 working as a security staffer at a bar...I have seen all the ranges of combat come into play! The fact that you are close to someone in a bar is just common, on the street medium to long range is normal, but if you are not ready to defend at any range...well thats stupid....what are you going to do if the guy rushes you or you are in a croweded room and you can not make space?

Actually, for the best system of fighting you should pick a solid striking club and also a grappling one as well, because even if most fights dont end on the floor...if you face a grappler and dont know enough to get back up and strike with him...your fight is ending on the ground...with you snoring or with a broken arm/leg.

- I don't mind it having some traditional techniques that are not suitable for today's combat.

You will find styles that seem to focus on "If he swings his sword...." Wait...what?

Yah, this kind of stuff is mostly Dojo driven and shows a immaturity of the instructor and the fact that they dont realize that 99.9999999% of all attacks today...Dont involve a Katana blade! However some of those techniques do translate to "if he swings his bat" or "If he has a knife".

Hey I realize that finding a club is hard. Finding one that suits your personality and you have a great respect and connection with instructors is not easy. And most of us have a pre set idea of what we want. But trust me...dont think "style" think Individual club! aslo realize that you wont be as good at things as others are their and you may be better than others as well...even black belts. Remember that you are their to learn and not show how much better you are and respect your "team mates"/"dojo mates" and learn to realize that even the weakest black belt has seen more than you and may be able to coach you as well, that orange belt you think can not spar very well, may have a round kick that you can learn from them!

its not what style, its your club and your attitude that will dictate your success!

Good luck!

[Rockford Tyson]

disagree with your assessment of the blocking in Goju-Ryu,

I am a fighter. You disagree with me based on what? From my experience, the blocks of Goju-ryu wouldn't work in a real fight. You stand in front of a great boxer or Muay Thai expert and try to block his strikes with that, and he is going to throw a bomb at your chin and knock you out cold. The katas in Goju-ryu are beautiful choreographies, and there are many aspects of the style that work in real fights. But those blocks are impractical. Too slow and based on mechanics that are inadequate for the human body.

but I will also point out that many "blocking" movements are not actually intended to be used as blocks.

How can a block not be used for blocking? That is an oxymoron. Look, I think Goju-ryu is awesome and one of the best styles of karate for real fights, but it is not perfect. It's defense has some serious deficiencies.

Regardless of that fact, however, you said you didn't mind some "impractical" techniques,

I was refering more to training in the use of medieval weapons that no one uses today, and which all traditional styles have, as the "impractical" things I don't mind. I actually think that training with these weapons add charm and mystique to the martial art.

and the fact that they pressure test their system through close-range contact sparring should weed out what is practical and what is not, anyway.

But you got to admit that the "sparring" is extremely choreographed and limited. It is not like in Muay Thai, where you can use whatever techniques to knock out your opponents. In karate, you are limited to using the movements that agree with the style. For instance, in many styles you have to use the cork-screw punch, which is a lot more awkward and, contrary to popular belief, actually slower than a normal punch. In the sparring of many styles, you have to use this punch. You go to sparr against a boxer using that punch, and he knocks you out. I have seen sparing sessions of kyokushin-shinkai, and they don't throw elbows at each other even though elbows are much harder than fists, nor do they do a kick such as the roundhouse kick, which is simple and powerful, prefering awkward high kicks that actually have a lot less power. The only reason they survive these "sparing" sessions is because they are fighting against guys who are also limited by "approved" techniques that agree with that style. Go do that in MMA, that is no-holds-barred and full-contact, and you will lose 9 out of 10 times against boxers and kickboxers. Simple as that.

The thing that you have to remember about traditional Okinawan styles like that, though, is that they were designed for self defense purposes, not sport fighting, so they were never intended for fighting at long-range or moving around an attacker--it was meant for dealing with short, brutal altercations from medium- to close-range because that's where self defense situations occur.

What you need to understand is that fighting from mid-range is stupid because that's where your oponent is in perfect position to strike you. You should either get close and clinch or stay on the outside using ranged strikes, moving around him to get openings. Boxers fight mostly in mid-range, and they are the fighters who take the most brain damage in all combat sports. Boxing is highly effective offensively, but it is stupid defensively.

I agree that most altercations occur in mid to close range. But that is because most people don't know how to fight. You should always try to put yourself in a position where your oponent cannot hurt you back. This is why Thai kickboxers clinch and use knees, and why jiu-jitsu masters take the fight to the ground and use leverage on their opponents joints to break their limbs. Staying in front of your oponent and banging is stupid. That is what brawlers do, and it is a style of fighting that demands enormous physicality for your to prevail. The fighter with the most power and toughest chin wins.

Okinawan karate styles are more practical than Japanese ones. I agree with you. The problem is the lack of ranged strikes and full-contact sparring. Kyokushin-Shinkai has full-contact sparring, but a lot of it's techniques only work within a sports contest and not really in real fights.

This is how most Okinawan styles are, although they go about it different ways. You can find people who do Okinawan styles that also teach sport fighting at long range, but you are going to have to look at individual instructors to find that, not styles. My instructor teaches a traditional Okinawan style, and also happens to be a very good long-range striker

Thanks for the tip.

I'm with MP--there is a vast difference between untrained brawling and an MMA fight between trained fighters.

Lots of martial artists don't like MMA because they don't like the brutal reality of seeing that a lot of the stuff they learned is useless in a fight. They don't like that they wasted 5-10 years of their life earning a black belt that makes them only marginally more dangerous than an untrained individual.

But all martial arts have valuable aspects that work in real fights. For instance, Lyoto Machida is a Shotokan master who was good enough to earn the UFC's light-heavyweight title. A lot of the stuff he knows didn't work, but enough worked for him to go 15-0 before finally losing. He had to adapt his karate to MMA, but when he did it worked beautifully. Interestingly, though, he uses a lot more the simple jab than any karate strike. But at UFC 129 he had that moment when he knoked out Randy Couture with a crane kick straight out of a movie. That was one of the most beautiful martial arts moments in history.

[MasterPain]

When is a block not a block? When it's a limb destruction wrongly taught as a block. Good luck finding the schools to teach it properly.

When is fighting mid-range stupid? When the other guy is better at it than you.

Why doesn't Okinawan Karate work in MMA? Because standing arm breaks are impolite.

I don't think anyone training in a sword art now expects to be in a sword fight.

Also, training full contact doesn't mean always fighting 100 percent when you spar. Nobody does that. Honest contact is a better term.

[Dobbersky]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!

This wasn't an argument, you asked for advice then when given to you, you dispelled it. If you have already decided your chosen path them why ask the question,.... for our blessing?

Everything that these guys have stated is excellent advice which I would feel honoured to receive, many of them have over 30 years of experience and of many of the styles and situations you are quoting.

Your specified style, I hear so many bad things about Tae Kwon Do being just an olympic sport and other derogatory things which I refuse to add, but I know from MY experience and from the guys on here, who practice TKD, it completely depends on the Dojo/Dojang and the Instructor NOT the Style.

The ONE main thing that is taught in Okinawan Styles IS RESPECT. Being a fighter isn't that special as there's actually quite a few cage fighters on here who are the most humble and respectful guys I am proud to know.

Good luck in your journey, whichever style you have already chosen

OSU

[Harkon72]

Osu! Each man's path is is own, he must walk it being true to himself with respect for others. Never judge unless you have walked a mile in a man's shoes. I know nothing, my views only matter as far as I can see. Perception is the widow from which the soul sees reality, Martial Arts is the way we hone our body, mind and spirit to accept all and hold our heads up to be counted.

[kensei]

I too think you should not comment about a person till you have walked a mile in his shoes.....that way if he does not like what you have to say...He is a mile away and you have his shoes