So many dang Passai's! (Poll)

[BlueWaveKarate]

Less of a question and more of an "AAGGGGHHH!"

I started with Bassai Dai when I was learning at first, then later learned (for fun) a few other versions. Now I can see benefits in all of them, which is great, except...

As an independent (not affiliated with an association) teacher, I can teach my students whichever makes sense. I consider most Passai's are better than Bassai as far as bunaki and complexity, so which one do I teach?!

I suppose my question to you all is: which style of passai/bassai do you practice/teach?

[Zaine]

Matsumura Seito. I really like it a lot but it's what I learned so it's what I teach. I've always really liked both of them.

[Wastelander]

In my system we teach both Itosu's Passai (we call it Passai Sho) and the Matsumura Passai (we call it Passai Dai) that Chibana learned from Tawada. Of the two, I would say that the Matsumura Passai that Chibana learned from Tawada is better. We know that Itosu changed the kata to fit his new school-safe curriculum, and in pursuit of that I feel that some of his kata lost their originally intended applications and became less useful. The Passai that came from Tawada, who was a contemporary of Itosu and student of Matsumura, seems as though it may be closer to the original kata as it was taught by Matsumura. I will also note that Chibana thought it was better, and his opinion carries some weight with me.

[Harkon72]

Our Bassai Dai is an Itosu Kata.

[Dobbersky]

The version of Bassai/Passai I practice/teach is the Tang Soo So version but amended to make it more akin to techniques used in Ashihara karate. I picked the last one as TSD is always described as Korean Shotokan.

[sensei8]

Our Bassai Dai is an Itosu Kata.

Same!

[BlueWaveKarate]

Thanks everyone! Wastelander, your opinion is pretty much where I find myself coming back to.

The Matsumura from Chibana seems to be, of the styles I posted on the poll, the most comprehensive, ie it includes most of the important techniques from everyone else's.

Hohan Soken's seito style seems just SO different from the rest, it's quite confusing as to where it came from.

Does anyone know where the "arms flailing overhead" (I know that's a gross simplification) came from? The seito version is the only one that has anything like it....

[Zaine]

Passai in the Seito version is very much a kung fu like form. I moved before I could go over all the Bunkai with my old sensei and couldn't find a new instructor in the same system but I imagine it was some kind of elongated block. My teacher used to refer to it as storming the castle, so I would imagine it had both defensive and offensive applications.

[Wastelander]

Thanks everyone! Wastelander, your opinion is pretty much where I find myself coming back to.

The Matsumura from Chibana seems to be, of the styles I posted on the poll, the most comprehensive, ie it includes most of the important techniques from everyone else's.

Hohan Soken's seito style seems just SO different from the rest, it's quite confusing as to where it came from.

Does anyone know where the "arms flailing overhead" (I know that's a gross simplification) came from? The seito version is the only one that has anything like it....

To be fair, I think there is some speculation as to whether Matsumura taught his family differently than he taught his other students (Kyan, Itosu, Tawada, etc.), and I think it is fairly likely that this was the case. We see similar trends in other family styles, after all. It is possible that Matsumura, himself, could have "dumbed down" the Passai he passed on to his public students and taught the "original" version to his family, or he could have taught the "original" version to his public students but a personal variation to his family. We really have no way of knowing! I wouldn't say that Hohan Soken's version of Passai is less effective--whether it is the "original" or a personalized version, it should still be effective if it came (mostly) unaltered from Matsumura--but I don't practice it so for the purpose of this thread I chose the Tawada version of Matsumura's Passai.

[BlueWaveKarate]

Very excellent analysis. Hohan (famiy) and other (itosu, etc) versions may differ simply due to the path of transmission. If that's so, it does make seito style a very unique style indeed; one that should not be assumed to have the same fundamental principles as the publicly taught versions.

Thank you!