Stopping at 1st Kyu

[Zaine]

The error is in thinking that the rank corresponds to a specific level of expertise.

I think the error is that it doesn't anymore.

Well, I don't know how strict the gradings used to be, but things definitely have gone downhill in terms of quality control, for sure.

Definitely. Fortunately there are schools who still hold on to a (for lack of a better word) "stricter" model for their students and the ranks actually do correspond to the expertise of the student.

[Anne Onimous]

Thankfully.

I will note, though, that it's not the worst thing in the world that schools give out ranks more easily than they used to. Having readily-accomplishable goals is helpful in motivation, and the more 'hardcore' students who feel that they should really earn their ranks through excellence always have the option of holding themselves back until they've felt they deserve the next title. Those kinds of students are generally mature enough to make holding themselves back a non-issue.

[Zaine]

Thankfully.

I will note, though, that it's not the worst thing in the world that schools give out ranks more easily than they used to. Having readily-accomplishable goals is helpful in motivation, and the more 'hardcore' students who feel that they should really earn their ranks through excellence always have the option of holding themselves back until they've felt they deserve the next title. Those kinds of students are generally mature enough to make holding themselves back a non-issue.

Agreed. Also, as a note, it's easy to forget that Martial Arts used to be necessary. As in, if you didn't know how to defend yourself you were easy prey. I think that a part of the stringent standards set are by people who needed their students to be at that level to live. We do have lower standards to a degree and this isn't a terrible thing.

[Harkon72]

I can understand, I was a Shotokan 4th Kyu for 3 years, I just enjoyed the Karate.

[seikokaistudent]

Thankfully.

I will note, though, that it's not the worst thing in the world that schools give out ranks more easily than they used to. Having readily-accomplishable goals is helpful in motivation, and the more 'hardcore' students who feel that they should really earn their ranks through excellence always have the option of holding themselves back until they've felt they deserve the next title. Those kinds of students are generally mature enough to make holding themselves back a non-issue.

Agreed. Also, as a note, it's easy to forget that Martial Arts used to be necessary. As in, if you didn't know how to defend yourself you were easy prey. I think that a part of the stringent standards set are by people who needed their students to be at that level to live. We do have lower standards to a degree and this isn't a terrible thing.

I feel that the lower standards lead to people having ranks that they do not deserve, and often offers them a false sense of security. Also is it truly an accomplishment when it is so easy to become a Black belt? All that being said, I don't even believe in the belt system, and I think that ranks should be based on fighting ability instead

[Anne Onimous]

I feel that the lower standards lead to people having ranks that they do not deserve, and often offers them a false sense of security. Also is it truly an accomplishment when it is so easy to become a Black belt? All that being said, I don't even believe in the belt system, and I think that ranks should be based on fighting ability instead

The false sense of security is a bit of a problem, but it's important to remember that Karate-do isn't just about fighting - for many people, it's a way of life. A part of the "way of life" thinking may be that one places more emphasis on kata and, perhaps, superficial achievement, but they have the right to practice Karate-do that way.

Personally, if I were interested only in self-defence, I would be taking self-defence courses. They would, at least, deal with guns, knives, and clubs, and may cover the "dirty fighting" moves more extensively. Knowing how to use and protect yourself against weapons is invaluable, as is knowing how to take advantage of a no-rules confrontation.

[DoctorQui]

I feel that the lower standards lead to people having ranks that they do not deserve, and often offers them a false sense of security. Also is it truly an accomplishment when it is so easy to become a Black belt? All that being said, I don't even believe in the belt system, and I think that ranks should be based on fighting ability instead

The false sense of security is a bit of a problem, but it's important to remember that Karate-do isn't just about fighting - for many people, it's a way of life. A part of the "way of life" thinking may be that one places more emphasis on kata and, perhaps, superficial achievement, but they have the right to practice Karate-do that way.

Personally, if I were interested only in self-defence, I would be taking self-defence courses. They would, at least, deal with guns, knives, and clubs, and may cover the "dirty fighting" moves more extensively. Knowing how to use and protect yourself against weapons is invaluable, as is knowing how to take advantage of a no-rules confrontation.

This to a degree

Karate isn't about fighting its about defence and discipline. If it was just about fighting I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. I wouldn't say that learning kata and technique is a superficial achievement at all. At the end of the day we all take Karate for different reasons. Imo a person who learns Karate purely so that can fight, isn't actually learning it for the right reasons.

If it was all about how well we could fight then I would probably still be a white belt after 6 years...if is was about defending myself defensively without the agression of fighting then I would be where I am now. Karate, generally, does not teach you to make the first move or start a fight,

[Anne Onimous]

This to a degree

Karate isn't about fighting its about defence and discipline. If it was just about fighting I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. I wouldn't say that learning kata and technique is a superficial achievement at all. At the end of the day we all take Karate for different reasons. Imo a person who learns Karate purely so that can fight, isn't actually learning it for the right reasons.

I think you misread. I didn't say that kata was a superficial achievement - 'superficial achievement' (such as belt colour advancements) was just one thing on my list that budo karate may include. It's good as a motivator, and I'm not putting it down - it just is what it is.

I respect kata very much, and it's definitely not superficial.

I noticed your edit. Sometimes I feel like I float into alternate universes.

[ps1]

Let's assume the student trains well and regularly. Let's also assume that the instructors are high quality. The difference between this student and the black belt students is only going to be superficial.

1. The student will not be wearing a black belt.

2. There may be "black belt level kata and one steps" the student hasn't learned.

3. Depending on the association, the student may not be allowed to teach.

That's about it. Since an advanced technique is nothing but a basic technique performed more perfectly and with expert timing and placement, the student would easily be able to perform "advanced techniques."

Pedro Sauer (8th degree Master of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) is often quoted as saying, "A black belt is just a white belt who never bothered quit." And since there are no "black belt" or "advanced" techniques in Jiu-Jitsu, this is a very true assessment of a black belt. They simply perform the techniques with more leverage, less strength, better timing, and more sneakily than lower level students.

So, to answer your question, the difference between a 3rd degree black belt, whose been training for 10 or so years, and a Brown (or red depending on the art) belt who's been training for 20 years? The brown belt is likely to be able to use physical techniques and mop up the floor with the black belt. But the black belt may be privy to kata (forms) and even instructors (who may be able to accelerate learning) and teaching techniques/methods that the brown belt is not.

However, I feel that someone who doesn't want to be promoted, doesn't understand that the color of the belt doesn't matter. Further, I propose their mindset is no different than the person who yearns for the next promotion.

[Tempest]

My instructor has a very straightforward statement on this for Judo.

If you have the points, time in grade, and skill to pass the test, then not taking the test is a violation of mutual benefit and welfare.

In Judo, if you beat someone who is higher rank than you, more points are awarded toward promotion. If someone is good enough to beat you regardless of rank, they should be awarded the points for beating someone the rank you should be.