Seppuku

[Groinstrike]

Disclaimer:

My post on KF at times lean towards the macabe. I would just like to put the disclaimer that I in no way condone suicide. My arguments are phylisophical in nature only. If anyone is offended by my questions let this topic be deleted.

My clan is an incredibly close knit group of martial artists. So much so that we refer to ourselves as a clan. Bujin Bugei Jutsu is an art the derives heavily from the samurai value of honor. That being said, is there any situation that honor can be restored through Seppuku?

Western societies tend to have differing views on suicide than others, and due to that discussing such topics can be difficult. I have developed certain unique views on what honor should mean to me in a modern society. I am asking everyone to keep an open mind when discussing such topics and respect the opinions of others.

That being said how would you react if a fellow member of your martial arts association brought up the topic of seppuku as a legitimate way of restoring honor after being disgraced. Im not talking about losing a karate tournament, I mean serious life altering actions that have serious social consequences I.E. convicted of a crime, bringing shame upon your family or school.

[Wastelander]

Very interesting, albeit morbid, topic! As it turns out, I am currently reading a book that I got for Christmas called The Katas: The Meaning Behind the Movements, that goes over this very thing. I may be way off base with my assessment, or the author may be way off base with his descriptions, but I'll give it a shot.

As I understand it, the act (and art) of seppuku has value in Japan because of their reliance on ritual and form as a way of life. This is largely because of the period of isolationism that Japan locked itself into, which forced it to develop culturally within its own borders without input from other cultures. This development saw the rise of strict codes of conduct in order to make everything run smoothly, and everyone was encouraged to follow their respective codes of conduct or face consequences. Everything in Japan has a kata, from getting dressed, to making tea, to speaking with others, to ending your life. Part of the kata of life for a samurai was the kata of seppuku, which was used as a motivator in the quest for perfection as well as a desensitization technique to the concept of dying. To the samurai, to fail at something in your life essentially meant that you had no more reason to live, because you would not be able to achieve perfection in life, but the act of taking your own life in such a painful way without fear or acknowledgment of that pain was a way to cleanse yourself of your failure and dishonor. To the warrior class, this idea was instilled in them from birth, so they would not be shocked or horrified by death, whether it be the death of those they kill in battle, the death of their friends and loved ones, or the death of themselves.

The rest of the world, having developed largely through open trade and travel between regions, rarely formulated such stringent codes of conduct because people from different cultures were constantly mingling. Since we had much looser ideas of how people should behave and act, we never developed such extreme acts as seppuku in order to repent for misdeeds, although we still developed apologies, procedures and punishments that our cultures felt fit those misdeeds. If someone were to suggest seppuku as a viable method of repentance in most civilized nations, it would be reacted to with horror, fear and disgust because it is not a concept that fits with our societal norms.

Personally (and I know this is a bit harsh for some people) I see no honor in killing yourself unless you have done something completely unforgivable and, even then, you won't be forgiven, but at least it can be said that you saw the evil of what you had done and saved the world the trouble of your existence.

[JusticeZero]

Complete cowardice. To me, it says "Not only do I feel like i've failed, but I am too much of a coward to try to make up for it, so I want to do some ridiculous ritual to bring as much drama as possible to make people feel sorry for me while I run away from the problem forever and leave everything to other people."

[Dobbersky]

I would never consider suicide ever! I'm a westerner, I practice Japanese arts, BUT I'm not Japanese I am "Gaijin"

I recall reading (correct me if I'm wrong) that Korean conscripts were not allowed to fly as Kamikazi Pilots as it soiled the right of passage that is meant for pure Japanese/Samurai lineage. So on this note above if you are not from Samurai lineage then Seppuku is not an honour distilled onto that individual hence the individual would not die in honour as Seppuku is for.

I can understand the culture in the pre-1900's for suicide being the norm, but in this day and age, it a bit freaky just like the movie "Hostel" there seems to be a real possibiltiy of this actually going on in an underground sect - thats what makes it terrifying.

For western culture I can't think of Suicide as an act of reverence, I only recall in Roman/Greek Culture of Suicide being accepted as "part of life"

Good thread and no it didn't offend me in any way my friend.

[MasterPain]

I believe Hari Kiri (belly cutting) originated as a general who was defeated and being chased decided that he would not risk being captured and giving up information. The method of death chosen was such to show that he was not a coward, but would not give the enemy the satisfaction of killing him. In my mind, the ritual was mostly used in cases that were reasonless. That and a samurai who lost his station in life could expect a poor future, might be preferable to starving in the street, but that's more a matter of practicality than honor.

In cases such as you are talking about, it would be better to live a life dedicated to atonement through doing good. Better yet, just don't do bad things. Personally I think it's bogus that Darth Vader got to be a good Force ghost for one moment of lashing out at the Emperor. It's far better to start a Nobel Peace prize or something.

[sensei8]

Seppuku was widely practiced throughout Japan by its Samurai, and it was widely accepted as in the context that it was applied. However, that was then, and this is now. I don't imagine that Seppuku is widely practiced today, it might be, but I suppose that it would be done behind closed doors today.

I understand that the Japanese treat the word "honor" without any ambiguity, in that, one either had or hadn't breached any honor code(s), and their solution as well as punishment isn't so surprising when one delves into the Japanese culture of those days.

Is the punishment harsh? To those that are Samurai; no. To those who aren't Samurai; yes. If I was Samurai in those days where Seppuku was widely accepted and practiced, I suppose that I'd commit Seppuku in order to bring honor back to my family and to myself.

JZ's comment about it being "Complete cowardice" to commit Seppuku doesn't give the Samurai credit within Japanese culture of those days of old. That was the Samurai way, and while we may not agree with Seppuku for whatever reason(s), that was the Samurai way to correct the act of violating the honor codes, especially if one was Samurai.

To me, that's the key...Seppuku was performed only by Samurai. The honor code of the Samurai was unlike any other honor code. Honor is not a word just thrown around, as it is by other cultures, especially during the days of the Samurai.

Are Samurai of the old cowards for committing Seppuku? NO! If I was Samurai, I would commit Seppuku without even a pause. Why? I'm Samurai!! No other reason(s) would exist for me, and I would gladly commit Seppuku for my lord(s), for my family, and for myself.

From a personal point of view. I have very little tolerance to those who might want to commit suicide for whatever the reason(s) might or might not be. My mom tried to commit suicide many, many, many times when I was between the ages of 14-17. Eventually, I turned numb to my mom's attempts..."Mom, if you want to kill yourself, then DO IT. But when you do, you're not only killing yourself but you're killing the spirit of those who love you...like me!" I'm glad to report that my mom, with the help of experts and from those who loved her, she defeated that demon within, and she never tried again. But, those 3 years for me were a living hell, a hell that I thought would never end.

Is Seppuku a way for the Samurai to gather some feeble attempts for attention? No, not for the Samurai, and for the Samurai, it went far deeper than the surface, much more deeper because to lose honor for the Samurai wasn't acceptable, not even in the slightest.

To be Samurai for a Samurai is the most honorable thing; only a Samurai can truly understand why a Samurai would commit Seppuku; only thing I can do is honor their ways by understanding what it means to be Samurai, not that I'd ever fully understand because I'm a Westerner by birth, I bow to the Samurai and their ways, but I don't practice them because I'm NOT Samurai.

Edited December 27, 2012 by sensei8

[Anne Onimous]

In my opinion, there is only one scenario in which Seppuku would be a good option: When a Japanese prisoner is sentenced for capital punishment. Instead of lethal injection or other such modern methods, a Japanese person should be allowed to commit Seppuku to honour the tradition of his lineage.

If one is faced with inevitable and impending death, it is gracious to allow them to choose the manner of death.

In most other cases, though, I don't believe that suicide by any means is the correct solution. There are some terrible diseases that may warrant it, but the circumstances in which suicide is a viable way out are very few. A lot of the time, it's how a person tries to fix depression, or atone for some unforgivable crime, but I disagree with this logic because depression is temporary in this day and age, and there are no unforgivable sins. If you want to get better, or atone for your wrongdoings, helping someone or something is the better solution.

Suicide is a selfish act. If one feels that he should die, then one should donate his life to a good cause instead of dying - i.e. to live out the rest of his life doing charity work. If one feels that he is too dangerous to assimilate into society, then he should seek out treatment before following through on that commitment.

Suicide without an extraordinary reason is a waste of years. Those years could be spent doing something more valuable than lying in the ground.

[Dobbersky]

But one must wear white and write a poem first!!

http://www.samurai-archives.com/deathq.html

[MasterPain]

But one must wear white and write a poem first!!

http://www.samurai-archives.com/deathq.html

Nice find. I would hope I could come up with something pretty like one of these or A Toute Le Monde, but I'll probably just write a dirty limerick.

[tallgeese]

Great, and also delicate, question.

Personally, I can indeed see situations where that's the only "honorable" recourse for a modern warrior. Now, let's be clear, the social structure is different now, and we're not in Japan. We're looking at serious extrapolation here and any act based on 200 year old customs.

As a first step in this, I think the concept of ritual suicide has evolved. No professional warrior carries a blade as a primary instrument of his calling any longer. As such, belly cutting is pretty much out.

No longer are we talking about regaining honor, or redressing being wronged. There are legal resources now for such things (even among warriors). Now, I can see it being about sparing your organization further and on-going embarrassment. And in today's culture, there are few, very few reasons for taking this step. Again, we're extrapolating here.

I can think of one incident, in my 20 plus years of MA experience and nearly decade of carrying a gun to work, that would warrant such a step. And then the step wouldn't have aided the victims of the incident or "regain" the offenders honor. It would have simply spared the organization the on-going mess.

That is, to me at least, the modern expression of that ancient ritual.