The Beginner's Thoughts

[Anne Onimous]

I ran into this website about a week ago on my search for information on the Martial Arts. After I found out that practising Kendo would not be in my budget, I turned to the empty-handed arts, and in my research on them... KarateForums was played a significant role.

So, I thank you.

Now that I've looked into things enough, I'm going to be joining a dojo soon, in the beginning of January. I've sent a couples of inquiries, and when the senseis reply to my, I'll decide on whether I'll be training in Goju-Ryu, or Shotokan.

My instinct is leading me to the Shotokan dojo. While they don't have a set location, because they use a school gym, a Japanese cultural centre, and a fitness centre (three locations, and all of them a healthy walk away!), the teacher has the most experience out of all the other senseis in this small town - a good twenty-five years, and a Godan rank to go with them.

I spectated a belt testing class today, and was mostly relieved with what I saw. The sensei had a good sense of humour, but was not too silly - he was also quite serious when necessary. I saw in their training a focus on self-defence application, though they do tournaments as well. However, in the kumite for belt testing, I did notice a lack of contact - a little disappointing, but I sent an email asking if contact is normally done, hoping testing is a different story.

I was rather hoping to acquire a few bruises, after all!

I may very well end up in the Goju-Ryu class, if they offer decent contact and aren't too pricey. I will say, though, that ... while I haven't gone to watch them practice (I will be doing that in a couple of days), I know this sensei is a bit less experienced than the Shotokan sensei. While his website is a bit less clear, especially on the number of years of practice, I can tell that he has at least eight years of training and is ranked at Sandan.

Now, Sandan is still quite good, but seventeen less years of training is quite the gap! I also don't know his prices yet, but if they're noticeably more expensive... then that will be a problem, as my budget is very limited.

When it comes down to decisions, I prefer more contact, and Goju-Ryu looks like it would be more interesting than Shotokan. However, even assuming pricing is similar, I am not entirely sure about which class I would want to join simply because of how much more experience the Shotokan sensei has. Karate style, I imagine, matters relatively little in how well a person can spar or fight when compared to how skilled a sensei is, and how well he can pass on his knowledge.

I wonder if I would be right to assume that a good teacher in a style less preferred would probably serve a student better than a somewhat worse teacher in a preferred style? Would the "worse" sensei produce a better student due to the advantage of using contact in sparring as opposed to not?

They're complex questions, especially considering that you have to factor in a student's faith in their sensei. Subjective things are the bane of knowledge.

I'm, of course, using their experience to compare them as I can't directly compare their teaching abilities in a quantitative way.

What are your guys' thoughts on the situation? I have their websites below, in case one of you is feeling especially curious about this situation.

... I really needed to spill my brain, tonight, so I'm sorry if my post was too lengthy! Lol.

http://www.cmaakarate.com/vernon/events.html

http://www.vernonshotokan.ca/

[DoctorQui]

Looks like you've done some very sensible research, very few bother to look before they leap...well done!

Both Shotokan and Goju Ryo are excellent styles so either one, you are going to learn some useful stuff!

Don't worry about no contact, if it was a grading then mabe its because lots of mums are their to watch and the school doesn't want to show their little darlings beating each other up The most important thing is what they do in a training session. Also, it is quite common, in the UK anyway, for martial arts schools to use several venues rather than one bespoke and very expensive dojo. Mine uses 4 venues!

I envy you, starting out for the first time however, what you'll quickly find is that in MA, you never ever stop learning!!

Welcome to the world of Karate, its hard but very very rewarding and enjoyable!

OSU

[ShoriKid]

If you are looking for contact in sparring, give the Goju school a check as well. While it is possible that the Shotokan school makes good contact in some sparring for adults, there is an equal chance that it is just touch sparring all the time.

As to the the time/grades of the instructors, it all depends. Grading comes at different pace from one organization to the next, so a sandan could have well more than eight years in. Then you have to consider the level of instruction received and the ability of the teacher. While the Shotokan instructor with 25 years in likely has more time teaching, some people are naturally better teachers than other if not better martial artists.

My basic point is to check out the Goju school and give it the same chance as the Shotokan. You may be surprised at what you find in that it fits your wants and needs better in martial arts training.

[Dobbersky]

either style is awesome. Its personal choice, Dan grades don't really make that much difference. at the level you are at. They'll both know the syllabus that is fitting for your level of training and beyond

I'd recommend attending a few free classes for each school if you can to see which is better fitted to you, but remember its for the long haul, 1st Dan Black belt is just the beginning

[MasterPain]

Don't neglect to check out a local mma gym. They are not typically the bunch of meatheads they are stereotyped as. You'll get honest contact and a great self defense skill set.

[DWx]

Welcome to the forums Anne Onimous.

I wouldn't worry too much about the details, just go along to a class or two and get a feel for the sensei and the atmosphere. After all, they could be doing hard sparring all day and the sensei's been training for 30+ years but the atmosphere is horrible!

WRT contact levels, perhaps you could give us some more context? Was it lower kyu grades? Were they sparring with safety gear or without? Contact levels might gear up depending on how advanced the student is. Also, grading sparring is sometimes different from class sparring. For example, when we do gradings at our school, instead of blasting each other like we normally do, we take off the gloves and are asked to demonstrate the variety and complex of techniques we can use rather than just how hard and how fast we can hit.

Regarding the instructor's grade and experience, again it's not something to bother with too much. There's so much variation between schools and styles as to how skilled a karateka is at a certain grade. And as has been said, having a lot of experience and a high dan rank doesn't always equate to great teacher. I would personally look at if the instructor is still furthering their own knowledge. I would ignore current grade and ask how many seminar's they do per year? who with? who do they train under and how often? What they learn will filter down to you so you want them to always be at the top of their game. Then I would pick the instructor who suited me best and not just base it on what grade they are now.

Also, it is quite common, in the UK anyway, for martial arts schools to use several venues rather than one bespoke and very expensive dojo. Mine uses 4 venues!

Ditto that. My school trains out of several locations of which none are a dedicated building.

[ShoriKid]

Don't neglect to check out a local mma gym. They are not typically the bunch of meatheads they are stereotyped as. You'll get honest contact and a great self defense skill set.

This is an excellent point to consider. A lot of mma guys are great to work with.

[Wastelander]

Good on you for doing your research! Definitely be sure to watch a regular class (one that you would be attending if you joined) at both schools, that way you can get a better feel for it. The Goju-Ryu instructor's bio says he has been under his current instructor for 8 years, but it's entirely possible that he was training under a different instructor prior to that. Regardless of rank or experience level, though, both instructors will have sufficient knowledge to teach you, and if they are continuing their education they should be able to continue teaching you for a long time. Also, don't forget that experience and rank don't necessarily make someone a good teacher.

As far as contact goes, you will most likely prefer the Goju-Ryu training if you want hard contact and sparring. Their iri kumi go is rough, realistic and intense!

[Anne Onimous]

My basic point is to check out the Goju school and give it the same chance as the Shotokan. You may be surprised at what you find in that it fits your wants and needs better in martial arts training.

Thank you . I will certainly be investigating these two schools as closely and as fairly as I can. I'll be going to the Goju dojo tomorrow before I make up my mind.

either style is awesome. Its personal choice, Dan grades don't really make that much difference. at the level you are at. They'll both know the syllabus that is fitting for your level of training and beyond

Well, that's true. I certainly have to consider that the Goju instructor will have at least eleven years of experience by the time I have mastered the basics with him.

I'd recommend attending a few free classes for each school if you can to see which is better fitted to you, but remember its for the long haul, 1st Dan Black belt is just the beginning

I plan to! Thanks for the input.

Don't neglect to check out a local mma gym. They are not typically the bunch of meatheads they are stereotyped as. You'll get honest contact and a great self defense skill set.

I hadn't really thought of that. There actually is one place in my town that offers this sort of thing, so I guess I'm obliged to see into it, at least. I'm interested in budo more-so than I am in general street defence, but refusing knowledge is no fun at all.

WRT contact levels, perhaps you could give us some more context? Was it lower kyu grades? Were they sparring with safety gear or without? Contact levels might gear up depending on how advanced the student is. Also, grading sparring is sometimes different from class sparring. For example, when we do gradings at our school, instead of blasting each other like we normally do, we take off the gloves and are asked to demonstrate the variety and complex of techniques we can use rather than just how hard and how fast we can hit.

The grading was done from white to brown, or specifically, 9th kyu to 2nd kyu. I did notice that the 2nd kyu students were asked to wear cups, mouth guards, and gloves for their grading kumite, but I don't believe contact was made - I expect it was just 'in case'. It's likely that kumite is done with some contact, and that grading is just different.

Regarding the instructor's grade and experience, again it's not something to bother with too much. There's so much variation between schools and styles as to how skilled a karateka is at a certain grade. And as has been said, having a lot of experience and a high dan rank doesn't always equate to great teacher. I would personally look at if the instructor is still furthering their own knowledge. I would ignore current grade and ask how many seminar's they do per year? who with? who do they train under and how often? What they learn will filter down to you so you want them to always be at the top of their game. Then I would pick the instructor who suited me best and not just base it on what grade they are now.

That's true. I suppose I'm really getting ahead of myself when I try to weigh the two dojos in my mind without having set foot in one of the two! Thank you.

Good on you for doing your research! Definitely be sure to watch a regular class (one that you would be attending if you joined) at both schools, that way you can get a better feel for it. The Goju-Ryu instructor's bio says he has been under his current instructor for 8 years, but it's entirely possible that he was training under a different instructor prior to that. Regardless of rank or experience level, though, both instructors will have sufficient knowledge to teach you, and if they are continuing their education they should be able to continue teaching you for a long time. Also, don't forget that experience and rank don't necessarily make someone a good teacher.

I've considered that the experience stated on his site is only a part of the truth. A sandan in eight years is slightly fast, though it's not unrealistic.

Thanks for your input. What does concern me a little is that I can't find any reference to the Goju dojo belonging to a national or international federation... I would like any achievements I make to be 'official', but I realize that knowledge infinitely more valuable than paper. My primary considerations will be how much each dojo charges, how much contact is used in kumite, and how much I like the sensei's style of teaching.

Thank you all for your time.

I will continue to spill my brain as I get more knowledge.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Anne Onimous

[bushido_man96]

Everyone has offered great advise so far. If you've narrowed down your choices to two or three (including the MMA gym), then spend time each week viewing each of the classes. See different classes each week from each school. Tuesday class may have a different focus than Thursday class.

As far as the experience of the instructor goes, I'd take it with a grain of salt. Learning from an instructor with 25 plus years of experience teaching is sure to gain you some valuable knowledge. But don't discount the less experienced instructor, either. He may have good ideas and methodologies, and may offer a curriculum that is more up your alley.

Best of luck in starting your journey, and welcome to KarateForums, too.