Jiyu Kumite

[MugaiJohn]

As a Shito Ryu Karateka, Kumite is largely a small proportion of training. Kumite in my Dojo is largely full-contact, low-emphasis on throws and takedowns.

With so many Kata, Yakusoku Kumite and Kihon Waza to learn, what is the general consensus on Free Sparring?

Should Jiyu Kumite be emphasized over Kata practice or is it largely limited to "Full Contact" styles such as Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, etc?

Is there a greater necessity for understanding and learning kata-bunkai or should Karate redouble its efforts on emphasizing the "kick-boxing-esque" mentality of free sparring?

EDIT:

Essentially, my question is this: Is the manner in which one practices free sparring, and the emphasis on which, limited to the style that they practice?

[JusticeZero]

Honestly I can see both sides of the debate, and i'm sure the founders of different art did too and chose sides for their own reasons.

I know s8 is going to pipe in soon in favor of a profound understanding of arcane and terrifyingly effective applications out of bunkai, because he's a bunkai expert and really, really good at it and can come up with things that will make a soldier cringe from looking at someone's pinky twitch in a form and someone else, Ev maybe, will pipe in with the case for knocking each other black and blue three times a week because guys that she's eye level with the armpits of hauling off and punching her in the face makes her giggle by reminding her of the white belt kids class she probably just played moving punching bag for a few hours back right before she goes "Hey, I learned this cool new trick, it REALLY HURTS!" and demonstrates.

Really I think that whoever is assembling the teaching methodology for a given form can work it out. We'll go with whatever our favorite teacher believes in. They all seem to get some good results, so i'm not going to worry about how some teacher that is not in my lineage got there. =)

[bushido_man96]

Honestly I can see both sides of the debate, and i'm sure the founders of different art did too and chose sides for their own reasons.

I know s8 is going to pipe in soon in favor of a profound understanding of arcane and terrifyingly effective applications out of bunkai, because he's a bunkai expert and really, really good at it and can come up with things that will make a soldier cringe from looking at someone's pinky twitch in a form and someone else, Ev maybe, will pipe in with the case for knocking each other black and blue three times a week because guys that she's eye level with the armpits of hauling off and punching her in the face makes her giggle by reminding her of the white belt kids class she probably just played moving punching bag for a few hours back right before she goes "Hey, I learned this cool new trick, it REALLY HURTS!" and demonstrates.

Really I think that whoever is assembling the teaching methodology for a given form can work it out. We'll go with whatever our favorite teacher believes in. They all seem to get some good results, so i'm not going to worry about how some teacher that is not in my lineage got there. =)

Justice, I love your vivid descriptions of and "post predictions." I giggled. And yeah, Sensei8 is nasty...

To answer your question, MugaiJohn, I think there is room for all of it. I'm not a Japanese stylist, and I don't recall if Jiyu Kumite is total free sparring, or a controlled 3-step, or what. You'll have to elaborate there for me.

In any case, I am sometimes of the opinion that forms practice and basics practice overwhelms the time of a class, and not enough time is spent on application, self-defense, and sparring.

As for the sparring, I think a happy medium can be found in doing some self-defense focused sparring and some more sport/competitive style sparring.

[ShoriKid]

As a Shito Ryu Karateka, Kumite is largely a small proportion of training. Kumite in my Dojo is largely full-contact, low-emphasis on throws and takedowns.

With so many Kata, Yakusoku Kumite and Kihon Waza to learn, what is the general consensus on Free Sparring?

Should Jiyu Kumite be emphasized over Kata practice or is it largely limited to "Full Contact" styles such as Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, etc?

Jiyu vs. kata is very much the call of individual instructors. Kata trained sufficiently imparts movement patterns, finger prints of the style on the practitioner. That's how I view it, though plenty of others will disagree. Free sparring should be part of every karate-ka's training. Everyone has a plan until they get punched.

Is there a greater necessity for understanding and learning kata-bunkai or should Karate redouble its efforts on emphasizing the "kick-boxing-esque" mentality of free sparring?

The short answer? Yes. The long answer? Needs it's own...wait, this is it's own thread.

If you're going to train kata then you need to learn how the things work beyond the simple block, kick, punch application. Otherwise you are wasting a lot of valuable training time. And you should work on your free sparring too. It doesn't line up perfectly with self defense, but it teaches a lot of valuable lessons. What it is to get hit, working combinations, non-compliant partners, distance, timing and how to cover etc. Both have value and should be looked into and get plenty of training time. But, I'm one of those crazy people who believes in partner drills, free sparring, kata application, breaking down movement and less line work and formality.

EDIT:

Essentially, my question is this: Is the manner in which one practices free sparring, and the emphasis on which, limited to the style that they practice?

Yes, there is. It isn't the easiest thing to do though and has to built specifically from the ground up for the style that is practiced. The rules context, the range, what you can attack with and how etc. There is a lot of work to do there. It's also why many people just go to a "kickboxer esque" sparring format and leave it at that.

[evergrey]

*attempts an innocent look* would I do that?

Honestly I am starting to think that the kid's classes all sit around a campfire late at night, flashlight shining up from under their chins, telling "Ev the boogeywoman" stories, because they look so terrified when they do end up sparring me, even though I'm so gentle! I really gently deposited that brown belt girl on the floor today, after spending some time just sort of walking towards her while she backpeddaled around the mat! Haha, do they think I'm going to hit them as hard as I do the ex Navy Seal guy?

Actually, my dojo does do kata with bunkai, too. I even start to MISS it when I'm seriously injured or sick. It's good for spiritual development, focus, maybe some muscle memory type of things too.

But yeah, there's nothing quite like good old-fashioned "dojo sparring," where you not only spar free-style, but you also get to pull a lot of dirty tricks that you aren't allowed to pull in a formal knockdown tournament. We practiced getting people in armbars and taking them down in class today, and were told to try some takedowns during kumite. Our entire mat space is probably about eh, 30 feet by 30 feet? Maybe 40 by 40, but that's probably stretching it a bit, and we had 14 people sparring all at once. We all got through it with only a couple knocked skulls, a split lip, and an errant throat strike (he was okay) but I did take a flying blue belt to the shin, haha! Luckily his skull was nice and soft.

Actually today we sparred light. Well, Kyokushin light. But still, light! Like 25% power! Except when my Sensei split my lip. I did tag him in the jaw with a bit of extra pop after that.

Then we went and got noodles.

Anyway, if you want to learn how to fight, the best way to do it is to fight. It's like learning to ride a horse. Best way to do that is to spend time in the saddle, on a horse. Still a good idea to watch other people ride, and read books, and talk about riding theory, and work the muscles that you need to ride well. Still need to ride to become a good rider.

Just remember that while the closer to realistic your sparring is, the better prepared you will be for "teh streets," it's still not at ALL the same thing, and a real attack can still be quite a shock.

And also, I've been awake for 27 hours.

Hoi! JusticeZero! I learned this awesome new elbow strike technique!

[ShoriKid]

" Flying blue belt"? I love it! Are those like hurled brown belts only softer?

[Wastelander]

I'll be one of those that promotes kata practice, but I say that kumite should be part of your kata practice. Kumite, as we know it today, is not the way it was originally done and while it can be fun and an effective way of learning how to fight competitively, I don't think it is the most effective way to train for self defense.

Ideally, I think that kumite should be role playing--one person is the defender and one person is the attacker--where the attacker does any real-world attack, typically based on habitual acts of violence, and the defender does whatever they need to--ideally utilizing techniques and concepts from kata--in order to end the threat. During this, the attacker does not throw one attack and freeze, but rather should react as they think an attacker really would and continue trying to accomplish their goal until they have been "defeated". As has been said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth, and this provides you with the opportunity to experience getting hit and reacting to it, but in a self-defense specific context.

That's just my own view on it, though, and keep in mind that I still do MMA-style sparring on a fairly regular basis

[evergrey]

" Flying blue belt"? I love it! Are those like hurled brown belts only softer?

LOL yep! But I'm really proud of this blue belt. For the first year he was here, he was always flinching and backing away. Now he's gotten a lot tougher, a lot braver, and his talent is really starting to shine though.

his voice has dropped a couple octaves too, lol!

I had a brief flying lesson last night too, come to think of it. I remember hearing my Shihan say "nice, very old school!" as I was sailing through the air.

I guess a lot of other women go to the mall or something for fun?

[sensei8]

EDIT:Essentially, my question is this: Is the manner in which one practices free sparring, and the emphasis on which, limited to the style that they practice?

In short...YES!! Methodologies and ideologies of said style dictate the practitioner to be a proponent of the governing body.

[bushido_man96]

" Flying blue belt"? I love it! Are those like hurled brown belts only softer?

LOL yep! But I'm really proud of this blue belt. For the first year he was here, he was always flinching and backing away. Now he's gotten a lot tougher, a lot braver, and his talent is really starting to shine though.

his voice has dropped a couple octaves too, lol!

I had a brief flying lesson last night too, come to think of it. I remember hearing my Shihan say "nice, very old school!" as I was sailing through the air.

I guess a lot of other women go to the mall or something for fun?

Too funny!