Iraq/Saddam

[SaiFightsMS]

I reopened this thread by request. Just please all keep it civil and respect each other and their opinions.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Sometimes, it amazes me when people ask if, or if not, to go to war with Iraq. Why is this a debate? I don't understand. Because you do not believe in killing people? Because you believe that someone who has been lying and killing his own people for over two decades might find the preverbal light? And change his ways? Perhaps because people believe that there is goodness in everyone? Or, that the idea of killing others is so terrible, that no cause can justify it? I am sorry, but that is ignorance. Almost as ignorant as people who believe we want to go to war cause Bush wants to "finish his daddies job"

 

I do not like the idea of killing people. I do not glorify war into some kind of romantic crusade. But, that does not mean I do not understand that sometimes it just is a necessity. September 11th was the day the world shook, and the day America truly woke up. It seems though, many of us have fallen back asleep. It is the duty, the DESTINY of this country to help those in need, and to destroy evil and set free those who are oppressed. Not always must it be done with force...but now is a time to take the gauntlet off. This does not mean we can run to every country and save every man women and child in the world. But when actions are so frequent, so evil-- it must be done. By duty and virtue as an American it must be done. People have spoken of those we have killed by sanctions. Sad, yes, but that is what you want...isn't it? You want to try and pressure him out without force. So that's what you do; you close a country down and try and pressure the people into doing the dirty work for you. Your pacifism has failed for 8 years. How many more would you like to try for? Do you really think that this is the American governments fault? That we drove the Iraqi people into this darkened life? Or perhaps the man (if you would call him that) who nerve gassed his own people, the man who made war with every neighboring country he could has something to do with it.

 

What must be done now, should have been done in 91, but it wasn't. No point in crying about what could haves and what should haves. It is a time for action. It shames me as an American when people speak against our own. Against our own president who almost made the most awful of political blunders: expressing emotion on public television after 9-11. He almost wept tears as he spoke to us. It shames me that you doubt yourselves. We are all Americans. We have a duty that was forged through our great actions and deeds we have accomplished through our history. You, who are Americans, speak against our own kind. As though we are some kind of barbarous nation laying siege to those we feel as though we can. Destroying anyone we feel we should. Must you be reminded of the GREATNESS of the American people!? No other country in ALL of history has accomplished what we have in such a short period of time. We have fought wars to save millions. We have rushed aide and our very lives to countries who no longer remember us. It is the American SPIRIT that makes us so great. That drives us to make a change in the world. To try and make better what we believe is wrong. Through our strength as people, and our unwavering will we have changed the world. LAND OF THE FREE--HOME OF THE BRAVE!!!...but...no more? Are we afraid now? Where are our brave? Have we forgotten the virtues we held so dear? It seems we have become...lost. We have started to question our own president, as though he was the enemy. The slayer of his own people. As though it was he who poisoned our own children as mother held them tightly, trying so very hard to shelter from a horrific death. Perhaps that's it then!? Yes, it is he who lies to us; he who kills us; he has openly praised 9-11!!! It is he who is mad enough to fund the terrorist that attacked our great nation. Yes, you have stumbled upon the TRUE great enemy. Or perhaps...perhaps it is time to step back, and remember the history of this great nation. The nation that has always tried to help those in need. The country who sent her own to die so very far away from their homes. To die, far away, because freedom was at stake. Because those who could not defend themselves needed our broad shoulder to lean upon.

 

I feel ashamed sometimes, when I hear those speak against our own. Speak against our sacred history. It is true, there have been dark spots, but what nation doesn't have them...But, what is also true, no other country has helped those as much as we have. No other country would rush to the aide of others as quickly as we would. And do so with the heart we posses. When we see something as Americans. There is a spark that happens in our very soul. We want to fix it. We want to change wrong to right. At that very moment. When you see someone fall, you want to pick them up, brush them off with a smile and help them along. It's the American thing to do. We are a brave people, with noble hearts. But again I say, it seems we have forgotten who we are. Do you really and truly believe we want to go there to secure oil reserves we don't even use or truly need? Do you truly think we want to rush there because we are afraid of the unknown? Or that the white house has some kind of super secret agenda that they won't tell us? We are making sure that what tears were brought to us on 9-11 do not happen again. Many annalist and the such have said America has never fought a preemptive war. Shouldn't that alone say something to you? Perhaps we are not the bullies you think we seem to be? I mean, if we were so bent on domination, wouldn't we have a few more wars under our belt that we started? I mean, really who could stop us if we wanted something? After all, we are the strongest nation in history. Nah, that means nothing I guess.

 

There have been many times I have wondered about what America is anymore. It seems cool and hip to throw demonstrations on uber-liberal colleges nowadays. Screaming mindlessly for peace and speaking against the president as though he was a dictator is what is trendy. I can understand why no one wants war. I don't want people to die, especially our American brethren. But, sometimes, when the cause is just...you must make sacrifices. It isn't always easy to do the right thing...but that's what makes us Americans. We do it anyway.

 

Before you denounce our beautiful country, and her one truly American tradition of being valiant, look back at our history. Look back how many times we have rallied together for ourselves, and our worldly neighbors. Hold sacred the honor of those who died for America. Men and women who believed in their country...our country. Please, do not speak against our home and our history in such ways. It is equally American to disagree and to voice your thoughts. But, before you do so in such a manor, are you sure we are as bad and as unjust as you believe? Or, are we a people who have fought for what is right? After all...we are Americans.

 

I believe in America!

 

I believe in Bush!

 

God Bless American!

[Maestro]

First of all, I would like to point out that there are two sides to every story:

 

The United States is very far from being blameless in this whole fiasco. Saddam came to power in 1979. In 1980, Iraq invaded Iran with U.S sanction and the financial support from many other neighboring countries. In '83, we (the United States) gave them tanks, helicopters, intelligence support, as well as equiptment for their Atomic Energy Commission, and the bacteria, fungi, and protazoa to make the Bio-weapons we are now so concerned about. During the rest of the Iran/Iraq war ('till 1988), they used these weapons against Iran, again, with our knowledge and support.

 

Also, many people seem to think that the invasion of Kuwait was just an act of Agression on Saddam's part. The truth is, Kuwait was stealing oil from Iraq. The Basra oil field lays 90 and 10 percent under Iraq and Kuwait, respectivly, and Kuwait was taking more than the agreed upon amount of the oil. Kuwait refused to make reparations to Iraq, and in 1990, Iraq invaded, with U.S support. The reasons for the United States' reversal of thier stance on the Iran/Kuwait war is not fully known. Many suspect that it has to do with the fact that at the same time, with the loss of the stabilizing influence of having both U.S and U.S.S.R allies in the middle east, Margaret Thatcher (Britain) told Bush that we need to make an example of someone before nations started letting out all their pent-up aggression. So, some suspect that we chose Iraq as that example.

 

Heel Hook, I do not see how you can love america as much as you seem to and still say that you are ashamed when you hear people speak against our own nation. It is this very ability to speak out that makes America what it is today. Nowhere in the world, not even in Britain, do people and the press have the same ability to speak out against whatever they please as they do here. In some countries I could not have even given the history that I gave above. James Maddison wrote over two centuries ago of the importance of creating a large union, in which we have factions, many, many factions in our population that will serve to moderate our viewpoints and keep us from narrowing our vision and seeing all sides of issues. Well, what good would all these moderating viewpoints be if those who had them were unallowed to voice them? It is extremely unfair of you to call other people's viewpoints ignorant just because you do not agree with them. As Saifight said when he re-opened this, you must respect other's opinions, not agree with them, but respect them.

 

While I do think that Saddam has to go, I do not think that it is time for war yet, especially not without support of the U.N. Let's say we do go to war, and we win. Two things can happen in reconstructing a country after regime displacing war. We could inherit the arab version of Germany--an inheritly strong nation with enormous talent and resources that will practically rebuild itself. Or, we could inherit the arab version of Yugoslavia--an artificial country divided among Shiites, Nasserites, Sunnis, Kurds, leftists, and all sorts of clans and tribes that can only be hald together by the iron fist of someone like Saddam. Well, let's face it, Iraq would be the second option. Iraq will take a tremendous amount of time to heal itself and become a progressive and truly accountable, self-sustaining government. It will be a many-year effort in which we would definitly want the greatest amount of international and U.N support possible. The task of getting rid of Saddam will be nothing compared to the task of rebuilding the country after we tear it down. The war on terror is World War III, and we should definitly not refrain from fighting it, but it is a world war, and I don't believe anyone has ever won one of those without lots of allies?

[Mr Heel Hook]

You will never have the support you ask for from the UN. There are too many agendas lying in the muck that countries like France wish to have happen. I did address that America, like many other countries, do have it's dark spots in history. You brought up a lot of things that happened from our doing.

 

Bad? Yes.

 

Relevant now? No.

 

This is now, a problem that must be dealt with. As I said before, there is little point in discussing what should have been done and whatnot. All I hope is we learn from the mistakes that we have made. You brought up several reasons why Iraq went to war with Kuwait. Why? Are you justifying what they did, or, just wish to make a point under your banner of "there are two sides to every story." Tell me how I can respect that as an opinion? People who protest this war often bring up points that are moot to say the least. It seems they desperately grasp for things to make issues of because they have nothing better to do than play the devil's advocate. Yes, I totally agree with you that people should say what they believe, however, don't say things just to say them.

 

And one final thing to address what you have said about going alone. Can a country go it alone? No, not on the world war (which I totally agree with on seeing it as such), but going to war with Iraq alone...yes we can. At the risk of sounding totally like an arrogant American, there will not be any consequences for doing this alone. The fact is the world needs us just as much as we need them. Who else gives them so many hand outs?

 

I will leave this post with an editorial from the Boston globe that I found most appropriate.

 

[Edited by Administrator]

[Patrick]

Hello,

 

I am sorry but we cannot allow you to quote an entire article that belongs to someone else (it is against the law). You are welcome to quote exerpts from it or provide a link to where they can find it online.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Well, if anyone wants the point of view from an Iraqi women, and why her people (the people this is about) never attend these protest, simply email me. It is very very insightful.

[Maestro]

I do not say things just to say them, and it is quite uncivil and un-american of you to continue to say that you cannot respect my opinion and that I am saying things just to say them. If you cannot focus on refuting a view and only the view, please refrain from replying.

 

There are consequences to going it alone! Even in the context of war only with Iraq there are consequences. The very fact that our Government--who sure as heck knows more about Foriegn Policy than any of us do--is trying so hard to gain international support should prove that to you. More than ever, the community we live in is a global one, and while you are right that we are the most powerful country ever, we cannot just do whatever we wish. Maybe you are right and we will never have support from the U.N (though I think we will), but I think that international support is important enough to wait longer for. As for the history, it is hardly "moot", I think it is extremely relevant. It is called legitamacy and IMO that history sure destroys a lot of ours in the case of Iraq. I suspect that a lot of people think of consider Saddam's invasion of Kuwait too when they consider what kind of person he is and whether or not we should go to war with him, and I think people should know the real facts before they make a decision. That doesn't mean that I think he is a great guy, he certainly is not, but I think it is dangerous to not have people know the facts behind the situations.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Wow, I never realized that disagreeing with you was uncivil and un-American. Maybe I am a communist or something? Thank goodness it isn't the 50's, I might get put in front of congressional community. Your post is null at best. Everything you accuse me of not knowing or not understanding I have already addressed in the first post you answered to. I never said the history of "things" is moot, I said the point people make are.

 

"No blood for oil!"

 

"Bush is a global terrorist!"

 

"Bush wants to finish daddy's war!"

 

You accuse ME of ignorance when people are running around with laughable things such as that? I should respect the opinions of others who share such views? Give me a break. People with that mind set are ridiculous. People like that are delusional zealots. But, there I go again, thinking that someone else's point is meaningless. Very barbaric of me. But perhaps that same ideological nonsense should apply to Saddam? Perhaps we should listen to his opinion on why he gassed his own people and Iranians? But, no, that's something totally different...or perhaps not. Perhaps when something is so foolish (or evil in that sense evil) there isn't a reason to truly care about the opinion behind it? What opinion did you make that I should care about? That maybe there was a reason why he invaded Kuwait? Perhaps I should care about the opinion of the murderers and rapist that ran rampant in Kuwait. Oh, I should stop, I am using your ideas of opinions as a plug in for my feelings of nonsense you brought up about Iraq invading Kuwait.

 

Then you brought up me saying that we are the strongest country ever, but that doesn't mean we can do what we want. Did I say that or even hint that in my post? No, I thought I addressed the fact that if we were like that, who could stop us? Hmm, are you sure you don't say things just to say them? What "real" facts can you offer to sway what must be done to not go to war no matter what the UN says? Do you have any, or just more metaphorical and ideological babble? I call it babble because you have put words into my mouth that I haven't said, or, say things I have already addressed. You can say what you want, I would never take that away from anyone. I believe in the first amendment, however, I don't have to care about something totally delusional in my...well...opinion.

[Patrick]

Degrating into bickering match.

 

Closed.