Crossed arm chambers and applications

[tallgeese]

I really think that the original intent of the motion, when you go back to the oldest forms out of Japanese arts, is part of a tuite sequence. It's a pretty standard position for one's arms to be in while working a joint. Part of the moving text book that kata initially was is acquainting the body with positions it will move thru in various phases of combat.

Now, when you start moving away from those few kata, and even fewer people around that can walk you thru that, it's largely mimicry that's being transmitted. We see that movement in a lot of kata now of modern origin (post 1960 say) and it's in there just because people have seen it in older form without context. So while the movement is there, it's really meaningless.

I think you are really going in the right direction here, and its sad that it is the case. I've really only been told that its a position that is used to build the power into the blocks or strikes. Now, with different research I've done, I feel good knowing that I can at least put some meaning behind the design here. Even if it is reverse engineered, its still a workable idea.

Now, can people go back in there an add value and application again? Sure. I wonder if it's the most efficient method of learning such movements, but one can really infuse some meaning by sorting out the background of these movements.

This has been discussed at length, to be sure. My goal, since I am in a style that utilizes forms in its system, is to have a way of taking meaning from them, and being able to explain in a reasonable manner why something is the way it is. I won't be able to change what I am doing for some time, so I'm just trying to get the most out of it I can.

That I totally get. Anytime a movement has the "why" behind it then that movement has infinitely more meaning. One thing to think about, like I said in my above post, in older kata there is often no step1,2, 3 logic. The "textbook" concept of the kata often isn't in order. I'm not sure what all of your forms are, but as you add application, bear in mind that the hand motions of one part might actually work with the foot motion in another for actual application.

This is an interesting idea you've got. Please keep us posted as you go. Maybe some videos even when you get the chance. Good luck.

[sensei8]

I really think that the original intent of the motion, when you go back to the oldest forms out of Japanese arts, is part of a tuite sequence. It's a pretty standard position for one's arms to be in while working a joint. Part of the moving text book that kata initially was is acquainting the body with positions it will move thru in various phases of combat.

Now, when you start moving away from those few kata, and even fewer people around that can walk you thru that, it's largely mimicry that's being transmitted. We see that movement in a lot of kata now of modern origin (post 1960 say) and it's in there just because people have seen it in older form without context. So while the movement is there, it's really meaningless.

Now, can people go back in there an add value and application again? Sure. I wonder if it's the most efficient method of learning such movements, but one can really infuse some meaning by sorting out the background of these movements.

Great question, bushido man.

Dead on and solid!!

[sensei8]

Yesterday my Sempai explained to me that Juji Uke (x block) is a Gedan Barai and Gedan Zuki strike to the leg at the same time.

Of course I am still sceptical about using 2 hands for blocking a middle-low kick and leaving all your upper body open for attack from your opponent's 2 free hands.

Imho, that's an assumption of a possibility, inasmuch, movements shouldn't be limited, thus restrictive.

[sensei8]

Most Okinawan styles utilize the methodologies/ideologies that blocks are only deflections. Just thought I'd throw that out there because I don't block, I don't know how to block; I can only deflect an attack. Which is very funny to me because our deflections use the word...BLOCK...to describe it, i.e., downward block.

Btw...great topic Brian!!

[bushido_man96]

That still takes up back to what the X motion is. I'm pretty certain it's not intended to be a block. At least not a two hands committed to a single attack kind of thing. More likely, it's a lead into a joint manipulation or a portion weapons defense showing contact portion of the arm. That's the thing with old kata, there are rarely contiguous tactics. Often, it's piecemeal reminders of an overall movement.

This what I am inclined to go with more than a two-arm blocking action. There is actually a segment in our Yoo Sin form where we X-block low, bring it up a high to an open-handed X-block, and then we twist the open hands around the wrists in a grabbing motion that would seize into a wrist lock.

From there, I'd be inclined to look at the level the X-block goes to, high or low, or mid section. So, I'd be inclined to think that a high level X-block may be indicative of a lock like Shionage, where the attacker's arm is taken over the shoulder, and a mid-level or lower X-block may indicate something more like Kotegashi. Those are just some thoughts, though.

That I totally get. Anytime a movement has the "why" behind it then that movement has infinitely more meaning. One thing to think about, like I said in my above post, in older kata there is often no step1,2, 3 logic. The "textbook" concept of the kata often isn't in order. I'm not sure what all of your forms are, but as you add application, bear in mind that the hand motions of one part might actually work with the foot motion in another for actual application.

I will keep this in mind, too. In Rob Redmond's book, Kata, The Folk Dances of Shotokan, he makes references to this idea of kata using similar movements to link back to each other. I also try to consider the moves in front of and behind a move, and also any kind of turning motion involved. Lastly, I really try to reference guys like Stuart Anslow and Iain Abernethy who really spend a lot of time on this stuff.

This is an interesting idea you've got. Please keep us posted as you go. Maybe some videos even when you get the chance. Good luck.

Thanks, tallgeese. I will try to do that. I hope I really get to work on some of this a bit more, at least maybe before class with some other students so I can kind of test it and work with it.

If I ever run a school again....oh, the changes I'll make!

[bushido_man96]

Most Okinawan styles utilize the methodologies/ideologies that blocks are only deflections. Just thought I'd throw that out there because I don't block, I don't know how to block; I can only deflect an attack. Which is very funny to me because our deflections use the word...BLOCK...to describe it, i.e., downward block.

Btw...great topic Brian!!

Thanks Bob. Its good to see you again. I hope you are doing well!

If I recall right, the word uke actually means "to receive" rather than "to block." Just with this nuance in mind, it alters the way I see some applications happening that I was using blocking for.

[sensei8]

Most Okinawan styles utilize the methodologies/ideologies that blocks are only deflections. Just thought I'd throw that out there because I don't block, I don't know how to block; I can only deflect an attack. Which is very funny to me because our deflections use the word...BLOCK...to describe it, i.e., downward block.

Btw...great topic Brian!!

Thanks Bob. Its good to see you again. I hope you are doing well!

If I recall right, the word uke actually means "to receive" rather than "to block." Just with this nuance in mind, it alters the way I see some applications happening that I was using blocking for.

Thanks Brian, I'm doing great, and I hope your and yours are doing well!!

Yeah....without getting into a lot of literal translations, you're dead on about Uke. To receive in Tuite allows use to continue the flow of the attack so that the attack can be used against the attacker. Don't want to stop the attack, just want to continue its natural flow as I redirect its path.

[yamesu]

The mid-level round kick is a touchy thing to deal with in regards to martial theory. In my view, and experience, it's best to deal with the mid-level threat with the elbows and forearms near the bend of the elbow. This makes the contact surface on your end either the rigid structure of the elbow or the supported portion of the forearm within the first couple of inches of the elbow. This is much less likely to cause injury than a blocking motion of any kind near the hand where the bones are thinner and there's no support.

This also lets you keep your hands up to protect the face. If they are there, then the elbows kind of naturally fall into posture to cover the mid section. I agree, the legs cover low line threats. Either the leg (thai cover) or the groin (Okinawan sanchin stance footwork).

Footwork is the last component here. Yes, it's best to not be there. However, as said, things happen. You're footwork can indeed still support the block. A slide away during impact at distance will lessen the force transmission. By moving into the threat as it comes in, one can "jam" the kick prior to it's most powerful portion of the arc.

Solid info.

Additionally, dropping the elbow by the ribs (as well as allowing face cover with the hands), also allows one to compress the ribs together, making them a stronger "structure", as opposed to having them spread, which is weaker and can lead to breakages more easily.

[ShoriKid]

The Ukewaza drills that I learned in Matsubayashi Ryu taught us to block "across" the body. For a chest block, you had the same stack across your chest that you're talking about with the blocking hand on top, palm rotated slightly outward. The right hand blocked a right punch, left to left etc. The drills taught everything as a clean block, which is the idea. What I've been doing with when training my guys is an evolution of that. The hand on the bottom is the initial "brush" or deflection with the blocking hand finishing as a pressured check to get the limb fully out of the way. Or it can act as a strike. And if you goof the timing, you have arms crosses as a nice covering barrier. Knife hand "blocks" from the Pinan/Hiean katas work in a similar fashion, but with a more direct striking and trapping application.

Something I've been contemplating for a while on the hand on top/bottom thing. Those techniques are meant to clear away intervening limbs. The "blocking" hand is supposed to clear the path for the follow up attack. So, in a blocking technique, the blocking hand/arm is on top because it is to emphasis that part of the encounter or point at an application involving joint manipulation. In a striking application, the lead hand is clearing or engaging the limbs to get you a clear attack, thus a little more direct in application. Just a personal thought on the hand positioning.

[sensei8]

Something I've been contemplating for a while on the hand on top/bottom thing. Those techniques are meant to clear away intervening limbs. The "blocking" hand is supposed to clear the path for the follow up attack. So, in a blocking technique, the blocking hand/arm is on top because it is to emphasis that part of the encounter or point at an application involving joint manipulation. In a striking application, the lead hand is clearing or engaging the limbs to get you a clear attack, thus a little more direct in application. Just a personal thought on the hand positioning.

Don't forget that the "blocking" hand is ALSO suppose to prevent the attacker from re-engaging, thus, the attackers hand(s) are out of position, which stalls the attackers transitions and the like.