Crossed arm chambers and applications

[bushido_man96]

In TKD and Karate, we see that many of the blocking and striking motions are chambered by crossing the arms in front of the body. In my current TKD style, we do a crossing of the arms like an X, with blocks typically crossing the blocking hand on the outside and strikes crossing the striking hand on the inside. In the ATA, we did more of an arms parallel, "hugging yourself" motion to really build tension into the snap of the technique, with blocks being chambered on bottom, and strikes on top.

But why? For power? Sure, that helps put snap into the techniques. But is there another reason that it developed that way? Guys like Abernethy have used this crossing motion as a cover to defend a strike, and then move into seizing actions. Whether that was the original intent or not, who really can tell. But, he makes it work.

I've been reading in Remy Presas' book, Modern Arnis, and on pp 64-65, he demonstrates an inside defense against a right punch, in which it begins with a brush block with the right hand, then a checking or grabbing motion with the left hand of the attacker's wrist. At this point, I can see how the two arms are actually in that "crossed" or "stacked arms chamber" position that we use so much in our TKD basics and forms. The technique finishes by striking to the face with a backhand while pulling grabbing arm back, like maybe to the ribs... Pages 66-67 show this defense in close-up, where you can really kind of see this idea in play.

So, that all said, I'm not claiming the reason why we as TKD stylists chamber our arms the way we do is because the application is a brushing strike/checking and grabbing motion to set up a strike, but, if you're looking for something to justify that chambering motion, this is an idea to play with.

You even get that "hikete" (is that right?) non-striking hand back to ribs motion justified in there, too.

Maybe I'm late to the game on this one, but seeing some still photos in the right places just kind of turned on a light bulb. I'd love to hear other MAists thoughts on this, as well.

[MasterPain]

The arnis block you describe sounds like the roof block. Use it all the time as entry to aiki technique.

[Harkon72]

We cross our arms for Gedan Barai, Uchi Uke and Age Uke, it gives the compression-expansion in the technique and power from the core muscles. I think it works in most styles of Karate.

[Tzu-Logic]

...an inside defense against a right punch, in which it begins with a brush block with the right hand, then a checking or grabbing motion with the left hand of the attacker's wrist. The technique finishes by striking to the face with a backhand while pulling grabbing arm back, like maybe to the ribs...

In Inayan Eskrima we have that same technique. What we do is start with that same cross block, deliver the fully loaded backhand, then follow through with a left cross and a right cross.

It can also be used as a drill between two people, block the backhand, sticky hand to the left cross to parry that, then do the cross block on the right cross and it starts over going the other way.

It's a very simple, very effective combo.

[Wastelander]

We do the crossing arms for our blocks as well, and there are a couple reasons for it. One is, as you've described, to use one hand to deflect and the other to trap. Another is to utilize hikite, the pulling hand, to grasp and pull some part of our attacker so we can utilize the "block" as a strike or joint lock (usually). A third reason is because bringing up both hands is a natural reaction to being attacked for most people, so by training them to come up crossed we develop the ability to trap and counter an attack by utilizing a natural response that would otherwise simply provide cover.

[DWx]

A third reason is because bringing up both hands is a natural reaction to being attacked for most people, so by training them to come up crossed we develop the ability to trap and counter an attack by utilizing a natural response that would otherwise simply provide cover.

This is what I've been told in my training; the crossed arms position is a guard that builds upon your natural response to lift your hands up in defense. Having your arms crossed is also a much stronger position than having two separate arms parallel absorb an attack. And even though not specifically taught to do it, I find this carries over into my sparring and in situations where I cover up to absorb a strike, I naturally find myself crossing my arms and ending up in this position. Then means I'm in a position to come right back and strike too.

However I would say that since much of the style I'm in comes from Shotokan, this guard reason could just be an explanation for what we've brought from the parent style without having to go utilize the idea of the trap or joint lock.

In TKD and Karate, we see that many of the blocking and striking motions are chambered by crossing the arms in front of the body. In my current TKD style, we do a crossing of the arms like an X, with blocks typically crossing the blocking hand on the outside and strikes crossing the striking hand on the inside. In the ATA, we did more of an arms parallel, "hugging yourself" motion to really build tension into the snap of the technique, with blocks being chambered on bottom, and strikes on top.

That's interesting to see the difference between your TKD and mine. Even though in my style the vast majority of blocks and strikes come from this common crossed arm position, we have rules about how the arms are crossed depending on what the technique is. For example, for a basic low block, the blocking arm is on the inside and the backs of the hands are together. But when doing a middle block, the blocking arm is on the outside and both arms are palm outwards. Largely the positions are related to making both arms twist and if you're blocking or striking pinky finger side, that hand tends to be on the inside and for thumb side, it tends to be on the outside.

How did your ATA method work for something like a low section strike (if the striking hand has to be on top)? Or a block that travels up? It sounds like a nice simple way to do it and you don't have to remember what's what for each technique (like we do) but it seems like sometimes your non-blocking/striking arm might get in the way?

[tallgeese]

I really think that the original intent of the motion, when you go back to the oldest forms out of Japanese arts, is part of a tuite sequence. It's a pretty standard position for one's arms to be in while working a joint. Part of the moving text book that kata initially was is acquainting the body with positions it will move thru in various phases of combat.

Now, when you start moving away from those few kata, and even fewer people around that can walk you thru that, it's largely mimicry that's being transmitted. We see that movement in a lot of kata now of modern origin (post 1960 say) and it's in there just because people have seen it in older form without context. So while the movement is there, it's really meaningless.

Now, can people go back in there an add value and application again? Sure. I wonder if it's the most efficient method of learning such movements, but one can really infuse some meaning by sorting out the background of these movements.

Great question, bushido man.

[bushido_man96]

I really think that the original intent of the motion, when you go back to the oldest forms out of Japanese arts, is part of a tuite sequence. It's a pretty standard position for one's arms to be in while working a joint. Part of the moving text book that kata initially was is acquainting the body with positions it will move thru in various phases of combat.

Now, when you start moving away from those few kata, and even fewer people around that can walk you thru that, it's largely mimicry that's being transmitted. We see that movement in a lot of kata now of modern origin (post 1960 say) and it's in there just because people have seen it in older form without context. So while the movement is there, it's really meaningless.

I think you are really going in the right direction here, and its sad that it is the case. I've really only been told that its a position that is used to build the power into the blocks or strikes. Now, with different research I've done, I feel good knowing that I can at least put some meaning behind the design here. Even if it is reverse engineered, its still a workable idea.

Now, can people go back in there an add value and application again? Sure. I wonder if it's the most efficient method of learning such movements, but one can really infuse some meaning by sorting out the background of these movements.

This has been discussed at length, to be sure. My goal, since I am in a style that utilizes forms in its system, is to have a way of taking meaning from them, and being able to explain in a reasonable manner why something is the way it is. I won't be able to change what I am doing for some time, so I'm just trying to get the most out of it I can.

[bushido_man96]

We do the crossing arms for our blocks as well, and there are a couple reasons for it. One is, as you've described, to use one hand to deflect and the other to trap. Another is to utilize hikite, the pulling hand, to grasp and pull some part of our attacker so we can utilize the "block" as a strike or joint lock (usually). A third reason is because bringing up both hands is a natural reaction to being attacked for most people, so by training them to come up crossed we develop the ability to trap and counter an attack by utilizing a natural response that would otherwise simply provide cover.

Right, the "flinch reflex" is what I've heard it referred to as, and that is how I've worked with the crossing arms actions before. But now, with this brushing block/trapping motion, it doesn't appear that it happens quite as simultaneously as the flinch response would. I guess its a few different options.

It also changes the way I see some of the high/low blocking moves in some forms. Perhaps the hand going high represents the hikite going high, as opposed to the ribs, to open up a lower target to strike? Just a thought that I will have to work with if I get a chance.

That's interesting to see the difference between your TKD and mine. Even though in my style the vast majority of blocks and strikes come from this common crossed arm position, we have rules about how the arms are crossed depending on what the technique is. For example, for a basic low block, the blocking arm is on the inside and the backs of the hands are together. But when doing a middle block, the blocking arm is on the outside and both arms are palm outwards. Largely the positions are related to making both arms twist and if you're blocking or striking pinky finger side, that hand tends to be on the inside and for thumb side, it tends to be on the outside.

We do share some similarities here, Danielle. Our down blocks do cross with the blocking arm inside, but this block crosses up higher, up to the side of our head, than the other blocks. Our middle blocks do cross the same as yours, with the palms in, so we can get that twist in at the end.

How did your ATA method work for something like a low section strike (if the striking hand has to be on top)? Or a block that travels up? It sounds like a nice simple way to do it and you don't have to remember what's what for each technique (like we do) but it seems like sometimes your non-blocking/striking arm might get in the way?

The high block was a bit different, but the arms would be parallel (but not touching), and the blocking arm would travel on the outside of the pulling hand, kind of making a + sign as they went past each other. The down bock was the odd ball again, being on top of the pulling arm, blocking arm crossed to the shoulder, and basically "scraping" down the pulling arm to the block position.

The parallel arms position worked out pretty well for getting to target areas ok. We didn't do a lot of low section strikes, so strikes chambering on top didn't really impede anything. And since both arms move at the same time, they get out of each other's way pretty well.

[yamesu]

Very interesting views here, thanks Bushido and everyone who has contributed so far. This got my brain juices flowing.

In kyokushin and Arnis we have utilised this as part of self defence techniques. Its interesting the applications that come from this to single hand grabs etc.

Additionally, one thing I have been taught in Kyokushin, is to further use the chest muscles to compliment the crossover. Compress them (pecs etc) on the crossover, and then bang, expand on execution. Nearly doubles the power.