Shotokan and Kyokushin

[bushido_man96]

I could make a strong case that a person would be better off sitting at home watching TV rather than sparring in a system that does not allow attacks to the head. It will teach you not to care about defending on of your most vital targets. This would be fatal in a street situation.

It is not about fighting tough. It is about fighting smart.

Head kicks are attacks to the head. I'd say if someone is wanting to learn to defend against "head attacks," i.e., punching to the head, Boxing, Thai Boxing, or MMA would probably cover it the best.

[JusticeZero]

I would say the opposite. Most of us wont be in a serious 'ninja' attack and will only be affected by the health effects of our training.

Hits to the head do not discriminate between where you are when you get them. The damage is permanent and insidious in tiny little nicks and chips at your mind, like a 'trick knee' in your soul. I don't want to infliat that on myself for a several layer deep 'just in case'.

[dave3006]

Please take my comments as my attempt to have a friendly debate. I don't have all the answers. These are just my opinions. Most importantly, I could be wrong (I am all the time!)

That being said ... Yes. Head kicks are to "attacks to the head". But, it is much, much more difficult to kick someone in the head. What I have seen is that guys close the distance and then just start pounding on each others midsections leaving their heads open to punches. The distance protects them from a head kick. I am just saying this is an incredibly bad habit that could get your face wrecked on the street.

I like the Shotokan approach that allows kicks to the body but face punches are controlled to stop shy of contact.

And, I believe the essence of a martial art is to train for a real street attack. I am not clairvoyant. So, I can't say that I will never need my skills to save my life. I have to train like I will.

[bushido_man96]

I like the Shotokan approach that allows kicks to the body but face punches are controlled to stop shy of contact.

One could argue that this approach teaches a bad habit of pulling punches, which could also get your face wrecked on the street. Its a toss up between pulling techniques and not pulling techniques and limiting targets for safety reasons. We could argue the drawbacks of either.

I will say this, though...there are a bunch of Kyokushin fighters who have gone on to do very well in Kickboxing events like K1, where head punching is legal.

[Kuma]

Most Kyokushin dojo are with the times and train for sparring in both contexts. I presently have a split lip from getting clocked with a punch from sparring last night.

[pers]

Please take my comments as my attempt to have a friendly debate. I don't have all the answers. These are just my opinions. Most importantly, I could be wrong (I am all the time!)

That being said ... Yes. Head kicks are to "attacks to the head". But, it is much, much more difficult to kick someone in the head. What I have seen is that guys close the distance and then just start pounding on each others midsections leaving their heads open to punches. The distance protects them from a head kick. I am just saying this is an incredibly bad habit that could get your face wrecked on the street.

I like the Shotokan approach that allows kicks to the body but face punches are controlled to stop shy of contact.

And, I believe the essence of a martial art is to train for a real street attack. I am not clairvoyant. So, I can't say that I will never need my skills to save my life. I have to train like I will.

Hello Dave , I enjoyed reading your post and your concept of martial arts .

However there is a point I like to make about face punches , in our dojo head punches were allowed to make firm contact .

The only controlled strikes were in pre set kumite like one attack kumite , in this the attacker in jodan zuki punches with speed and power to actualy hit the opponents face , if the defender is successful in blocking or avoiding the attack he then counters with a controlled but meaningful counter as it is considered a free shot and the person recieving it is not allowed to block.

Shotokan is a martial art and caters for every age group and in any physical shape or size , so if you are very small in hight and size you don't have to stand up face to face and exchange blowes with a person who is 190 cm and 100 kg in weight and maybe 30 years younger than you if God forbid you find yourself in that situation for real !

If you can aquire the skills to avoid his attacks and have such timing and sense of distance to hit him at his most vunarable position and try and end the conflict with minimum amount of time that you can spare .

One good example is the late sensei Kase 9th dan JKA ,you look at the man and believe me , you would say to yourself ,,I can take him out in two seconds ,until you see the man move with such grace and speed that would leave you in shock ! he was very short and did not look athletic at all ,but what he lacked in physical apearance he had it in his karate ability and skill ,he has many videos on youtube . I had this feeling towards him when he first came round to our group of green belts to teach us in the famous Crystal palace course but he amazed all of us .

the greatest lesson I learned from him that day was that karate is for everyone ,even those with limited physical or less advantagous pyhsical body type.

[dave3006]

I guess that is the toughest part of the striking arts, "how to best simulate real combat?"

If you hold back too much, it is unrealistic. If you don't hold anything back, people get injured and can't train. I guess it is all pros and cons. No perfect answer.

Just recently coming from a grappling background, it is kind of a startling difference. In grappling, your opponent resists your attempt to submit him 100% from a grappling perspective. But, even grapplers limit some moves due to risk of injury. Most BJJ schools do not allow heel hooks because, if they are done wrong, you can be wrecked for life. I have been choked unconscious 4 times. I woke up. No big deal. I had by arm broken in an armlock. It healed in a couple months. Heel hooks scare me to death.

[pers]

I guess that is the toughest part of the striking arts, "how to best simulate real combat?"

If you hold back too much, it is unrealistic. If you don't hold anything back, people get injured and can't train. I guess it is all pros and cons. No perfect answer.

Just recently coming from a grappling background, it is kind of a startling difference. In grappling, your opponent resists your attempt to submit him 100% from a grappling perspective. But, even grapplers limit some moves due to risk of injury. Most BJJ schools do not allow heel hooks because, if they are done wrong, you can be wrecked for life. I have been choked unconscious 4 times. I woke up. No big deal. I had by arm broken in an armlock. It healed in a couple months. Heel hooks scare me to death.

I am talking about my experience in my shotokan dojo ..

Just like in the airforce they use simulation or army sharp shooters don't actualy kill each other in training so does training partners in dojo ,they push each other to their limit and hit them to make the training worth while .

Like our sensei says you better learn to block your partner becuase outside they are not going to be nice to you , so in the dojo is the cruel to be kind concept .

I am actualy doing my partner a favour by trying to hit him in the face or body as fast as I can so he can learn to avoid it , if he can't then he still lives and may just have a bit of a bruised face and ego but he will actualy learn something from that and you never know he may actualy think twice before he gets into trouble outside !