Failing Students.

[Dobbersky]

Failing Students.

What are your thoughts on failing students. I've not failed a student yet, but came close to it over the last couple of gradings. Now is this a issue of my own making or am I seeing to much into it.

One student currently on junior syllabus was borderline on his grading. Now if he was working on the adult syllabus I would have failed him, definitely. Do I have to fail someone, to make students realise that they do have to meet a specific standard to get the next grade. This is why I have separate syllabi for juniors and adults, because I have different levels of requirement. A few of the kids would have failed if the same requirements are needed.

Your thoughts please.

[Lupin1]

I'm not a martial arts instructor (although they've been letting me help with the kids' class lately), but I was a 2nd grade teacher for two years and now I work in a middle school. When I first started teaching, I thought I'd never be able to give a 7-year-old an F. But I found I easily could and I did. In my two years I even held three kids back a grade and recommended one be sent back to first grade right at the beginning of the year (we ended up not doing that and he struggled all year long only to be retained in 2nd grade anyway). I don't believe people should move on until they're ready. I know you can be a bit more flexible in a martial arts class where you don't have a mandated state curriculum and standardized tests, but if someone doesn't have the basics, it's just going to set them up to struggle more and more as the class keeps moving along. In teaching reading we call this The Matthew Effect-- the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you push a kid along before they're ready, they end up getting further and further behind as the class tries to build upon skills they haven't yet mastered. Better to take a little longer and get it down pat first, imho.

If you're worried about hurting a kid's self-esteem (and I have my own opinions about the lengths we go to to build self-esteem which usually ends up producing young adults unprepared to handle failure), create a new rank for the kid. Outline all the progress he HAS made so he knows he is making progress and put a stripe on his belt even if you don't normally use stripes. That way he knows that even if he isn't ready for the next belt, he's still making progress and getting better and is on his way to that belt. You can even make him "senior yellow belt" or whatever he is and let him be a leader among the new yellow belts and help them with the things he has mastered. And it's ok to tell kids that everyone learns differently and some people take a little longer, but if they keep working hard like they've been doing, they'll get it. It's a good lesson that kids are perfectly capable of understanding.

Just my two cents.

[Dobbersky]

Agreed, but I have a system where I have 3 or 4 tabs they must receive before they can grade. All those that graded had all the required tabs so they must have been at the level required for gradings to receive their tabs.

I might possibly create a Sho grade where they passed but only just or graded but failed.

[Evil Dave]

One way around this and a lot of MA schools use it is that you don't grade someone until they are ready! Sounds simple, yet useful. Do you have a pregrading system, where the students are evaluated before they are allowed to grade? It does not't have to be a formal event or it can be with something like a stripe of tape on the students belt saying they are ready to grade. Also, talk with the kids parents, let them know your concerns and what you are planning to do with him. Then they will know why their kid is not grading with the group.

We do have to watch out for our students self-esteem, but not overly protect it. My opinion is that gradings should be a positive event, even if it takes a little longer. I let the esteem bruising {we all need a little} happen in competition, whether it be in-class, in-house tournament or a larger venue.

[bushido_man96]

I think the point of the grading is to put the pressure on the student to do what he has been training to do. I try to make sure that every student that is going to test is ready to test. But, once they get there, its up to them not to botch it. If they do, then its called a testing for a reason; there is the possibility of failure.

Look at it this way; is the reward greater if you know it won't be taken from you, or is it greater because you know you had two options; fail or succeed?

[ShoriKid]

I sat on a promotion board for a close friend and recommended he not be passed for his 1st kyu test. That wasn't an easy call.

We test for green, brown and black, with spot checks in between. They are tough tests with real chances of failure. But, they are not invited to test until they are "ready". Still doesn't mean that they won't freeze up, or get tired and just give up and try to go through the motions. I've seen that happen when I was just on a testing panel where the candidate seemed to be hoping that the instructors would call an end to the test early.

[pittbullJudoka]

I would say if the student isn't up to your schools standards, then yes they fail the grading. If you let them slide you are letting you standards down. I personally failed a Kyu test at the first dojo I trained at. Years later I realized it was one of the best things that ever happened to me as a martial artist. It was mostly Nevels when I failed but not totally. I have no problems failing someone if they don't meet the standard set before them, as I would expect someone to do me the same way.

As some students get higher in the ranks they sometimes get in the mind set of I'm getting my "x" belt on "x" day. Especially if they are a friend of yours and you are on the promotion panel. As Shorikid said of his friend I also voted failure on a friend of mine on his brown belt test. It is hard to do but the standards are in place for a reason.

Personally if I passed someone who I felt was not ready, I have failed that person. I failed them because I didn't give them what they need to succeed. I failed my instructor because he set the stands and I ignored his teaching. And I failed my dojo because I lied. If I faile someone I'm going to tell the exactly why they failed. And if they want me too help them in the given areas they are lacking I will do so.

There's a saying from jiu jitsu ( forgive me because I don't remember who said it.) "You either win or you learn." In this case you either pass your grading or you learn where you need improvement.

[DWx]

If you can't fail then it's not a test; it's a procedure or formality. Why not just assess in class if a student can just turn up on the day, perform sub-par and still be awarded the belt because they usually do better? Why bother with the testing?

[bushido_man96]

If you can't fail then it's not a test; it's a procedure or formality. Why not just assess in class if a student can just turn up on the day, perform sub-par and still be awarded the belt because they usually do better? Why bother with the testing?

Because most schools will charge for it. I've always had to pay for testings.

[DWx]

If you can't fail then it's not a test; it's a procedure or formality. Why not just assess in class if a student can just turn up on the day, perform sub-par and still be awarded the belt because they usually do better? Why bother with the testing?

Because most schools will charge for it. I've always had to pay for testings.

Well there is that. I've always paid for my testings, however when I pay, I'm paying for the examiner's time and expertise to come and test me and see if I deserve the next grade. I'd rather have to chance that I might fail because to me, it means I'm getting good value for money and they're actually scrutinising what I'm doing. But in the event of failure, that brings up another issue: do you charge for retestings?