Stances: launching pad or landing gear?

[Chunmonchek]

I believe that the problem with many arts is not how they train, but how they bridge the gap between devlopmental training and real-time use.

I know that we spend much time and effort on many things that in a real confrontation takes a second or less to execute.

The key is to bridging the gap is to also focus on the difference between developmental work and real application. For instance, like most, we train most of our punching and blocking from "chamber"...its developmental. To bridge the gap, we also train two-man drills with no "chamber" for strikes or blocks, but still using the form and development cultivated from kihon.

[JusticeZero]

I've started training techniques from a neutral position now (no guard, arms to the side, your standard nonchalant standing "stance") and that's where I think stinking hard to stances can be a hindrance. In the street, when are you going to be in "perfect" stance when you are attacked? I mean sure, you can get in stance rather quickly, but when that first punch comes, chances are you will not be in stance.

You likely won't be in a neutral position, either. It shouldn't take too much extra training; I do some responses from neutral, but they all immediately move to negaça or esquiva diagonal or resistencia or some other position as a consequence of the technique used to respond.

[bushido_man96]

...You mean you didn't know that?

More that I never considered it that way. We can do the same things as other people for a long time, but when we hear things put in a different perspective, a light bulb can come on.

I've never sparred in anything other than a "sparring stance," with feet around shoulder width apart, body slightly bladed, slight knee bend, and hands up. Not a "stance" per se in many styles, but the ATA did adapt a "sparring" stance into their curriculum that you could say lives somewhere between a back stance and a high middle stance.

I've thought for a while as stances being transitional, moving between techniques or even for leveraging a sweep. I learned to throw techniques from a stance early on, and still teach that way early on. Its just that the "landing gear" terminology Redmond used to describe the stances makes my mind look at them differently now than I did.

[DWx]

I believe that the problem with many arts is not how they train, but how they bridge the gap between devlopmental training and real-time use.

I know that we spend much time and effort on many things that in a real confrontation takes a second or less to execute.

The key is to bridging the gap is to also focus on the difference between developmental work and real application. For instance, like most, we train most of our punching and blocking from "chamber"...its developmental. To bridge the gap, we also train two-man drills with no "chamber" for strikes or blocks, but still using the form and development cultivated from kihon.

Yes totally agree. Although kata training is good for a variety of reasons, this is one of the limitations if the gap isn't successfully bridged between it and a more free model of sparring.

Great post, DWx.

That actually got me thinking (the moving your feet first then thinking bit) and you're right. Back at lower grades I did the same thing too. While this is only loosely related to the topic, I've started training techniques from a neutral position now (no guard, arms to the side, your standard nonchalant standing "stance") and that's where I think stinking hard to stances can be a hindrance. In the street, when are you going to be in "perfect" stance when you are attacked? I mean sure, you can get in stance rather quickly, but when that first punch comes, chances are you will not be in stance.

I don't know... maybe I'm over thinking it? Maybe I need more coffee... yeah... coffee sounds good.

No I think that's a great training exercise A lot of the time sparring and self defense training start from a (guarding) ready position. It's good to learn to throw something from anywhere. However, having said that, if you can see a situation building you should get your hands up in a defensive position. If you can't see the situation building, chances are it's too late anyway because you're too slow to react and you'll be caught off-guard anyway. And it's probably not a great idea to always fight hands down as it will train bad habits but yes IMHO it does sound like something that would be good to fit into a training programme.

WRT to the moving the feet thing: I do think it's a case of having to make the jump from "I want to be there to do this technique so let's move my feet there" to "I want to do this technique and in the process of doing, so my feet will pass through there".

Learning to unconsciously move and flicker in between stances was a hurdle for me in my training. It really required forgetting to kick and punch and just learning to move and forcing myself to move and just let the stance naturally happen (if it was going to). As a bigger person as well, I'd be tempted to just stand there and soak it up so I really had to say to myself I was going to evade rather than take the shot. Required a lot of footwork drills which I still do now.

[bushido_man96]

I believe that the problem with many arts is not how they train, but how they bridge the gap between devlopmental training and real-time use.

I know that we spend much time and effort on many things that in a real confrontation takes a second or less to execute.

The key is to bridging the gap is to also focus on the difference between developmental work and real application. For instance, like most, we train most of our punching and blocking from "chamber"...its developmental. To bridge the gap, we also train two-man drills with no "chamber" for strikes or blocks, but still using the form and development cultivated from kihon.

Yes totally agree. Although kata training is good for a variety of reasons, this is one of the limitations if the gap isn't successfully bridged between it and a more free model of sparring.

Seconded. Making that transition to sparring and self-defense is important to cover. I've been guilty of referring to stances as "techniques all their own" in forms, because its the first thing that becomes lazy and forgotten in forms. Students are more worried about the punching, blocking, and kicking, and the stances become lost in the muddle.

Also, in regards to forms training and stances, we train that we want to see those stances, so when the student lands in the stance after a technique, we want to see that stance, and make sure it is "right and good." This naturally causes a bit of a pause, hindering the idea of landing and transitioning just a little bit.

[straightblast]

I think what the author is pointing out is correct, look how your moving within a kata from on stance to another (example: left front stance to right front stance) you’re not on the balls of your feet moving as in a fight you deliver the technique into the stance.

I find this very true when I started analyzing MMA, They are in constant motion but when they strike I can totally see zenkutsu dachi for that moment in time.

So he’s saying the stance is the platform your landing your techniques in not how your launching your techniques.

[bushido_man96]

Basically, yes. He sees stances "as a result of motion." He also addresses the heel up vs heel down argument, but that would be for another thread, I think.

[Harkon72]

Holding stances like Kiba Dachi and Kokutsu Dachi can be training in them selves.

[xo-karate]

One element in my new training program is to do 10 times Kiba dachi very low and keep the stance 10 seconds - and in future increase duration. (From some source - i think it was elastic steel - good duration could be like 4 minutes:-)

[bushido_man96]

Holding stances like Kiba Dachi and Kokutsu Dachi can be training in them selves.

Yes, I agree, and it can be good training to get the muscles to recognize that position and make it easier to get back into when needed.

But, the author also kind of pointed this type of training out as the being the reason that many perceive the stances as launching pads more than landing gear. This kind of training is often accompanied by throwing techniques from these held stances, and when doing so, instructors will teach the "loading" of the hip and blasting of the technique. I know I've taught this way as an instructor. But it also tends to instill that idea of launching pad over landing gear.