Where's the Capoeira at?

[BaxterS]

Sparring is.. always problematic.

People who do linear styles love to spar, because to win at sparring, all you have to do is "use control", that is, use a faster strike with intentionally bad technique that puts no body mass behind it. They flick a jab out at super speed and tag the other person with a quick and harmless technique, and are confident that they have proven superior skill.

Then we get in, and our techniques are all based around large spinning techniques that use a lot of body mass. You can't whip half of your body mass at someone at 40MPH from a large body drop and then suddenly stop it on a dime based on the friction you can generate on the ball of your foot. The engineering and physics just don't work that way.

If we want to not break people who don't know how to evade attacks like we do, we have to slow the whole technique down - at which point they go "flickflickflickflickflick, see your style doesn't work", then get tapped by a kick that we're keeping throttled back while trying not to be totally slomo and go "And you have no -control-!"

My idea, to show my style in sparring, is to do almost roda-style sparring - extremely light or no contact, slowed down, with emphasis on technique. I get what you mean, though - light but full speed sparring doesn't work in Capoeira, because there's no way to safely spar using kicks like the Armada or Meia Lua de Compasso. But I'm determined to find a way XD

[darksoul]

Sparring is.. always problematic.

People who do linear styles love to spar, because to win at sparring, all you have to do is "use control", that is, use a faster strike with intentionally bad technique that puts no body mass behind it. They flick a jab out at super speed and tag the other person with a quick and harmless technique, and are confident that they have proven superior skill.

Then we get in, and our techniques are all based around large spinning techniques that use a lot of body mass. You can't whip half of your body mass at someone at 40MPH from a large body drop and then suddenly stop it on a dime based on the friction you can generate on the ball of your foot. The engineering and physics just don't work that way.

If we want to not break people who don't know how to evade attacks like we do, we have to slow the whole technique down - at which point they go "flickflickflickflickflick, see your style doesn't work", then get tapped by a kick that we're keeping throttled back while trying not to be totally slomo and go "And you have no -control-!"

Well depending on who I spar with, I would expect proper contact. I do spar full-contact 90% of the time. I understand your point of you with the "flickflickflick" but at the same time find it a widely generalized and, honestly, a bit of a cop-out.

If your moves are all big circles but I can hit you faster (but with mass) than you can hit me, chances are darn good I'll end up winning the fight.

[JusticeZero]

Go to about 28-30 seconds in.

Do you really want us to hit you with that kick, AT THAT SPEED AND LEVEL OF POWER, in a friendly sparring match? The guy in the clip targets at head level. My school tends to target the floating ribs with it, and I usually do them about that fast when i'm drilling form. As it leaves the ground, while I have a couple of options to transform it, they turn it into something that is not a kick and that you won't recognize as one. By the time it gets far enough to look like a kick, I can't slow it down or reduce the power in any meaningful way any more than you can "control" or "pull" a bullet after you've pulled the trigger. That kick is no more exotic, unpracticed, or uncommon than a boxer throwing a hook punch.

[BaxterS]

Well depending on who I spar with, I would expect proper contact. I do spar full-contact 90% of the time. I understand your point of you with the "flickflickflick" but at the same time find it a widely generalized and, honestly, a bit of a cop-out.

If your moves are all big circles but I can hit you faster (but with mass) than you can hit me, chances are darn good I'll end up winning the fight.

Like Darksoul said, it's not that our kicks and techniques are slow - in fact, Capoeiristas are known for speed and agility. It's that we can't really slow down our kicks while keeping them believable. It's either on or off, not much in-between.

[bushido_man96]

On another note, I loved the sound that kick made when it landed. And no, I don't want to be hit with that.

A note and question on technique. I am aware that the way Capoeiristas do their kicks is different from many other styles. I have tried to do hook or heel kicks that way, putting my hand on the floor, and the kick just doesn't feel right; I know the problem is I try to apply the way I do the kick standing when I put that hand down, but something doesn't come out right, and I also feel like I can kick higher my way than by putting my hand on the ground, which seems counter intuitive to me. Can either of you guys explain to me why and where I am going wrong?

[JusticeZero]

Mea lua de compasso is powered by gravity, spring tension in the torso, and rotation, rather than by any "hook".

Start by going to the side-facing stance, with feet and hips perpendicular to the target and the side facing the target. From a center or backweighted position, drop your torso and allow it to fall, swinging your head forward and between the legs, and put the hands on the ground as you have seen. (you should be looking between them or fully between them, rather than crossed.)

Move the hips forward as you do this to move your center of weight between the lead foot and hands (which should be close to the lead foot). The back leg will straighten as you do this.

Your path will interfere with your back foot remaining on the floor; your torso will want to move through the space occupied by your upper leg, and the body position will cause a stretch in your torso. Release the rear leg and allow the tension in your torso to release and swing your hip around; this part might feel more like a particularly twisted axe kick than a hook.

The resultant path of the kick will be related to the path your head took; the energy from the fall as stored in the body tension will sling the heel through the target as the hips turn over from rotating around the hip joint over your base foot.

After the kick passes the target, it will return to the place it originated from, and in doing so will pull your hips around and pull your torso back upright. At the end, sink the pelvis to park the kick in a forward ginga position in order to correctly return the energy into storage and retain balance.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for that explanation, Justice. When I get a bit healthier, I will try to play with it a bit.

[SamsIAmz]

I absolutely believe Capoeira can be effective. Perhaps a better way of explaining my concerns about it's immediate practicality would be to say Capoeira has a larger learning curve. In the long run capoeira is probably comparable to any other martial art. However if you were to teach say jujutsu or some other stereotypical self-defense art to somebody for half a year, and teach capoeira to somebody for half a year, I would be willing to bet the individual with the self defense art could defend themself better.

I love capoeira, and I would not want to be kicked with a full on meia lua de compasso, but I do not feel confident I could use it (yet) in a self defense situation. I find distance is a large constraint, at least for unskilled capoeiristas. Alot of the kicks take a lot of space (to the sides), and I couldn't see myself using a large number of them in confined spaces. Again, perhaps this is something that improves with time.

I have found the dodges to be one of the more effective techniques I have learned, and most translatable to my karate practice. Alot of the dodges have the arms high in a fashion somewhat similar to elbow blocks you would see in MMA. I also find the take downs very effective in capoeira. From the little judo I have done, I have found that doing a vingativa is very easy to do as a counter to someone (somewhat unskilled) trying to throw you.

[darksoul]

Go to about 28-30 seconds in.

We have that kick, we call it a wheel kick. Only difference is that our upper body won't dip as low. True, we don't use that kick in sparring because you can't control it, however, we call it a Kamikaze kick. If it hits, you win, if it misses, you are very much open.

[BaxterS]

We have that kick, we call it a wheel kick. Only difference is that our upper body won't dip as low. True, we don't use that kick in sparring because you can't control it, however, we call it a Kamikaze kick. If it hits, you win, if it misses, you are very much open.

I'm guilty of this too, (comparing moves from different styles) but Capoeira kicks are fairly unique. Some styles have some kicks that look sort of like it, but they aren't the same thing - notice how he places his hand on the ground when he throws the kick. This helps him keep control of it, as well as return to his stance, or instantly throw another kick, which is what he does. It's not hard to use this kick while keeping control of one's balance and not being too open, it's just hard to spar safely with it. If it misses, we still are in control of ourselves.