A Black Belt Requirement; Fight in the Cage??

[bushido_man96]

It's a bit like telling someone that they can never become a proficient baseball player unless they have been in a competitive football game, or telling someone that they cannot become a passable Kendo player unless they have been in a saber fencing match.

It holds the special pleading that MMA is a better ruleset; I don't agree. MMA has been evolving in its own direction. It isn't a bad direction, but it is a direction. It is no longer, and arguably never truely was, a perfect and unbiased test of skill for all takers. And it isn't the same direction as Karate.

Furthermore, MMA people take head shots. I am not willing to do anything where people hammer me in the head; i'm an academic, I live and eat based on having a highly functional brain, if I have to get punched and kicked in the head to advance then I don't care how good your skills are, i'm not sticking around.

All good points, Justice. Thanks for your thoughts here.

I'm not trying to point to the validity of lack thereof of MMA in comparison to other styles. Nor am I saying I think having a cage fight as a requirement is good, bad, or indifferent. What prompted the thought of this thread was the idea I've heard in past discussions about how "black belts used to be tougher," guys like Wallace, Lewis, and Norris. There usually wasn't a question of whether they could fight or not. And that nowadays, black belts are "given away" and don't mean what they used to. My thought process is along the lines of thinking that if the option to do a fight in the ring are present, would be a prudent course of action for a black belt candidate to endeavor?

One thing is for sure; it would be a learning experience.

[Dobbersky]

Sorry I've not responded until now, I wanted to think about the question and respond with a focused answer.

The one thing about Full Contact Karate, candidates ARE tested to see if they can fight, with Ashihara karate grabs throws, sweeps etc are within our arsenal so its half way there anyways.

I've always said a blackbelt SHOULD be able to fight in all arenas, from non contact to semi contact to full contact to standup grappling to groundfighting. And this is just Karate grades not just Jujitsu grades etc.

Good thread.

[yamesu]

When Mas Oyama was alive this was a part of Kyokushin (not MMA), but one needed six competition points at full contact level to grade for Shodan (1st degree).

[JusticeZero]

I don't object to a fighting skill/experience thing per se... I object to needing to get the experience in 1: a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MARTIAL ART 2: that gets hit in the head.

[ShoriKid]

It's a bit like telling someone that they can never become a proficient baseball player unless they have been in a competitive football game, or telling someone that they cannot become a passable Kendo player unless they have been in a saber fencing match.

It holds the special pleading that MMA is a better ruleset; I don't agree. MMA has been evolving in its own direction. It isn't a bad direction, but it is a direction. It is no longer, and arguably never truely was, a perfect and unbiased test of skill for all takers. And it isn't the same direction as Karate.

Furthermore, MMA people take head shots. I am not willing to do anything where people hammer me in the head; i'm an academic, I live and eat based on having a highly functional brain, if I have to get punched and kicked in the head to advance then I don't care how good your skills are, i'm not sticking around.

All good points, Justice. Thanks for your thoughts here.

I'm not trying to point to the validity of lack thereof of MMA in comparison to other styles. Nor am I saying I think having a cage fight as a requirement is good, bad, or indifferent. What prompted the thought of this thread was the idea I've heard in past discussions about how "black belts used to be tougher," guys like Wallace, Lewis, and Norris. There usually wasn't a question of whether they could fight or not. And that nowadays, black belts are "given away" and don't mean what they used to. My thought process is along the lines of thinking that if the option to do a fight in the ring are present, would be a prudent course of action for a black belt candidate to endeavor?

One thing is for sure; it would be a learning experience.

When Wallace, Lewis, and Norris were coming through their early days and just getting their black belts the composition of people training was very different at that time. 2 of those named gained initial training while in the military. Classes used to be pretty well exclusively male with ages running from mid-teens to about 30-ish. No body much cared if you got bruised up, it was expected, you were learning to fight. Karate was supposed to be tough and was marketed that way.

Class composition has changed, younger students, kids, more women. Karate isn't a tough guy thing any more, it's an "everybody" thing now when marketed.

Karate/martial arts haven't changed really. We've got some better training methods due to straight advances in the science of training and equipment available. We've got more training available, more people teaching in more locations. But the people training are different and train for different reasons than they did 15-20-30 years ago.

[Dobbersky]

...................But the people training are different and train for different reasons than they did 15-20-30 years ago.

This is exactly it. Good Post!!!

[ShoriKid]

...................But the people training are different and train for different reasons than they did 15-20-30 years ago.

This is exactly it. Good Post!!!

My first instructor started training in the early to mid 70s. They worked their basics and kata religiously, but as he put it "We were five night a week fighting fools."

I expected karate to be rough and loved it for that. Others don't. PittbullJudoka and I had a woman we worked with, who's son was a bb, ask if we really hit that hard after we both came in to work sporting facial bruises. Her son was a shodan who had never gotten an eye blacked, nose busted, or a bloody lip, yet he said he was a pretty good fighter. Some people don't really expect that learning to fight involves actually fighting.

[ShoriKid]

I meant it so much that I said it twice!

[pittbullJudoka]

I would only encourage someone to take a cage fight per black belt if they wanted to do so. I wouldn't ever put that in as a requirement due to the fact some people just train to be training and the stress relief and enjoyment of it. Shorikid and I run a small dojo and we do not push competions on our students but if they decide to compete we will do our best to make sure they are ready. I train bjj at a different gym and my instructor does not decide our promotions on tournies won or lost. It is decided on our skill set as it should be.

I do how ever agree with turning up the pace and contact level as the skill set advances. And at least one time a year of going very very hard.

[bushido_man96]

I want to thank everyone for their input so far. You've made this discussion into exactly what I was hoping for.