Karate with no Soul?

[straightblast]

Where did the three K's originate? It surely had to be from a master of a certain "style" of karate not a blanket statement for all styles.

If Kata is required in your style then you need to learn it but it is not required in ALL styles, not doing kata does not take away from karate.

Saying kata is karate, my only be true to your style and saying without kata there is no karate is in my opinion putting down other styles which goes against the "DO" in karate.

[Drew]

For me "Do" means path or way. It is the steps in our journey towards our better self. Karate is just a tool to fashion the person towards a surer step, a path of character and honor. Consciousness is a focus in time, a reality that can be balanced by spiritual training. Each is unique, it has the color of your existence on the canvas of the universe. Mind what you have learned, save you it can, it is the way of the Force!

I don't want better character, I want that last line of influence over other people should reasoning and political manuevering fail me. I want to beat other people in competitions. I want to be able to lend advantage to myself and people I like in those instances where violence can be effectively employed.

I don't prey on the weak or anything, and I don't go looking for fights, but people don't walk over me, and never will. I have the tools to protect myself so that I can take what I want from life.

When you get right down to it, there is one everlasting truth between all things living, and it is this: If they can't kill you, but you have the ability to kill them, you are in charge, you hold the reins. This is true on a microscopic to a national and world scale.

Better character? Thats something family and society crafts. Thats something I craft myself. Thats not something some arbitrary calisthinics craft for me. Do you see people doing pushups all day then getting up and feeling like their character is so much better? Why not volunteer at a homeless shelter or make a hobo a sandwhich and give him a job?

What is better character? Is it being able to do a kata perfectly and focus on it completely? Not by my definition. Superior character to me is realizing that you depend on everyone around you and going out of your way to help others once you've helped yourself. Kata doesn't do that.

So I guess what I'm saying is martial arts to me aren't a tool for character development, they are a tool for subjecting others to my will when it is appropriate. Parents do it, police do it, the military does it and they all always have.

[Dobbersky]

I know an instructor who teaches knockdown karate and has taken all the official kata out of his syllabus and teaches just what he knows what works, he himself a national and European champ and some of his students have gained their own championships. I've trained with him and his students and I can say there's definitely nothing missing in his karate.

So, would you say his Karate has no "soul?"

Also, I'm curious if this instructor gets cut some slack because he teaches a knockdown style, and not a point style. If a point stylist did this, would he be viewed the same way?

Good question and, for him I would say, his style surpassed kata, it was a difficult decision but he let go of the kata to concentrate on his 40+ years of Karate had led him to the path he follows now.

[evergrey]

I think I know who Dobbersky is talking about! Does his dojo name start with a "C?"

If so, he feels that the martial arts have progressed DESPITE all the high protocol, instead of BECAUSE of it. He does see it as a sport. He saw some pretty nasty abuse meted out with the "it's tradition" excuse.

At his dojo, there is no bullying allowed, and everyone treats one another with respect. Big egos and the bad behavior that comes with them are probably discouraged as well, judging by what I know of him.

Enshin doesn't really have kata- is it soulless?

There IS a spiritual side to kata, if one looks for it and accepts it... if one incorporates it into one's training. It has a purpose... but I don't think kata is absolutely necessary for one to follow the budo of karate, and I certainly don't think it's needed to become a good FIGHTER.

Does it help? For some people, yes, for others, not so much, from what I've gleaned.

I'll get back to you on this in eh... 10 or 15 years. :}

[brickshooter]

IMHO, Kata allows the student to surpass his instructor faster than it would be without Kata.

Most instructors are limited to what they themselves have personally experienced.

[Harkon72]

IMHO, Kata allows the student to surpass his instructor faster than it would be without Kata.

Most instructors are limited to what they themselves have personally experienced.

This is an interesting point, our instructor would be VERY proud of us if we achieved this!

[bushido_man96]

Where did the three K's originate? It surely had to be from a master of a certain "style" of karate not a blanket statement for all styles.

If Kata is required in your style then you need to learn it but it is not required in ALL styles, not doing kata does not take away from karate.

Saying kata is karate, my only be true to your style and saying without kata there is no karate is in my opinion putting down other styles which goes against the "DO" in karate.

I think the emphasis on the 3 K's really started being a mantra when Funakoshi was implementing Karate into schools. Those 3 K's created an easy to follow class training protocol that really got things going for the style.

I can't confirm this, and if anyone else has any other solid information on it, please chime in with it. This is just an estimated guess on my part.

@Drew. Good post, with some very good points. I agree with your thoughts on character development.

[DWx]

IMHO, Kata allows the student to surpass his instructor faster than it would be without Kata.

Most instructors are limited to what they themselves have personally experienced.

Could you elaborate on this as I'm unsure what you mean?

Do you mean the student collecting more kata that their instructor? Or just delving into the kata more than their instructor?

[brickshooter]

IMHO, Kata allows the student to surpass his instructor faster than it would be without Kata.

Most instructors are limited to what they themselves have personally experienced.

Could you elaborate on this as I'm unsure what you mean?

Do you mean the student collecting more kata that their instructor? Or just delving into the kata more than their instructor?

IMO, skipping Kata is like taking a university class and not buying the textbook.

When taking a university class, the professor takes from the text book the things that he finds the most useful based on his most current personal experience. He explains it to you, assigns homework and provides examinations on what he lectures on - but just the things he finds to be the most useful, and skips the rest which is roughly 1/2 of the textbook.

But if a student wants to have a comprehensive understanding of the subject matter, he needs to spend the time and dig into the textbook, look at opinions of people other than the teaching professor.

[DWx]

IMHO, Kata allows the student to surpass his instructor faster than it would be without Kata.

Most instructors are limited to what they themselves have personally experienced.

Could you elaborate on this as I'm unsure what you mean?

Do you mean the student collecting more kata that their instructor? Or just delving into the kata more than their instructor?

IMO, skipping Kata is like taking a university class and not buying the textbook.

When taking a university class, the professor takes from the text book the things that he finds the most useful based on his most current personal experience. He explains it to you, assigns homework and provides examinations on what he lectures on - but just the things he finds to be the most useful, and skips the rest which is roughly 1/2 of the textbook.

But if a student wants to have a comprehensive understanding of the subject matter, he needs to spend the time and dig into the textbook, look at opinions of people other than the teaching professor.

Great thanks for explaining I like the analogy.

But continuing the analogy, the professor may disregard parts of the textbook because he knows it to be an outdated idea or that there are better ways (other textbooks, practicals, his own material etc.) to teach it. The textbook is supplementary but it isn't the core of what he's teaching.

Also, would this analogy be relying on the fact that those learning the kata would be exploring bunkai? If so not all forms of Karate look at bunkai in the same way. For example Kyokushin don't really look at bunkai as much as other forms of training (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In your opinion would those that don't do the practise be practising soulless Karate?