Karate with no Soul?

[sensei8]

Kata is Karate, and without it, it's an empty shell; all three of the K's must be there or it's not karate, imho!! Kata is the heart of karate, and kata is the soul of karate...by all means...absolutely.

Imho...the main part of karate is the study of kata. Do they know the kata? I mean really know the kata, not the sequence of the movements, but the heart and the core of the kata. The point of studying kata, and not just performing it, because the two are night and day, and in that, to study the kata is to learn what the applications of the techniques are, and how to use them.

Learning how to apply our power, how to move, how to react, and so on and so forth. These things you can learn from studying the kata, and then kumite with a purpose, not just known movements, but movements that echo kata.

My question and concern with any forms training, is can you learn the things proposed to be learned in the forms, without the forms? If you learn the applications through the forms, then why not focus more on the applications, and less on the forms. Because it appears that if the applications are what is important, especially for self-defense, then why not do what is important for that aspect of the training?

This is why I wonder about forms sometimes. I think they can be a good tool. But I don't think they are always the most important tool, or the most necessary tool.

To the first bold type above...Yes you can learn the things proposed to be learned in the forms, without the forms. And to the second bold type above...the kata is important for that aspect of the training. WHY? You answered it yourself...where? In the third bold type above...it's a tool for most karateka's, and in that, kata is a important tool and it's a necessary tool BUT it's not the most important/necessary tool within a karateka's three K's.

[sensei8]

Is it really a fact? Are there studies that conclude this? There are those who have achieved similar levels in Aikido, a style devoid of kata practice, yet very spiritual in and of itself.

As far as "Do" goes; that's a subject I don't truly get wound up about. Not every Martial Art is about the "Do," and therefore not every Martial Artist is concerned with it, and so I think one can study Karate without concerning oneself with "Do."

I'm sure this will gain me even more popularity than I am winning now, , but I don't think the "Do" mindset or path is necessary to every Martial Art or Martial Artist.

To the first bold type above...Imho, and what my Dai-Soke taught us was that the "do" is an important element to Karate, thus the word Karate-do.

To the second bold type...I agree, the "do" isn't necessary to every MA/MAist, unless one's involved in karate, thus, karate-do.

[bushido_man96]

But, Karate wasn't always Karate-Do.

[bushido_man96]

For me "Do" means path or way. It is the steps in our journey towards our better self. Karate is just a tool to fashion the person towards a surer step, a path of character and honor. Consciousness is a focus in time, a reality that can be balanced by spiritual training. Each is unique, it has the color of your existence on the canvas of the universe. Mind what you have learned, save you it can, it is the way of the Force!

Hehe, its a cool Star Wars analogy, for sure, and who doesn't love a Star Wars analogy?

When it comes to those things, for me, I took my character development and spiritual development from my home upbringing and my religious beliefs from my church. MAs aren't necessary for it, in my opinion.

[ShoriKid]

But, Karate wasn't always Karate-Do.

And it isn't always now. Too many karateka take "do" as an excuse for navel gazing. They skip the sweat and the hard work and examining with a critical eye what sort of skills they are really learning. Karate jutsu used to be the order of the day. I'm not a big Funakoshi fan, but his early works were considered jutsu. Later, came the "Do". It can happen, but I have long felt that if you're seeking it out, it won't happen.

[MasterPain]

When it comes to those things, for me, I took my character development and spiritual development from my home upbringing and my religious beliefs from my church. MAs aren't necessary for it, in my opinion.

See, this is why I prefer the Jutsu. While the martial art is a huge part of my spiritual life, that is up to me to find that personal meaning. I think all of the long term guys from our family would feel this way, too, despite having very different religious views.

[ShoriKid]

When it comes to those things, for me, I took my character development and spiritual development from my home upbringing and my religious beliefs from my church. MAs aren't necessary for it, in my opinion.

See, this is why I prefer the Jutsu. While the martial art is a huge part of my spiritual life, that is up to me to find that personal meaning. I think all of the long term guys from our family would feel this way, too, despite having very different religious views.

I feel pretty much the same MasterPain. Spiritual development comes from a lot of places, but I don't get it through my martial arts. Not in a planned path. It's honest, it's punishing and I enjoy it. That's it. Karate is my drug of choice, but my spiritual path comes from my faith and my family.

[evergrey]

I think that kata is one way to connect to the Way, but it is not the only way. In karate, every action we take, in class and out, can be a step along the path to the martial Way.

OSU

[DoctorQui]

For me, Kata is the central nervous system for Karate and therefore absolutely essential in learning 'Karate'. I am NOT saying that applies to ALL martial arts but if there is no Kata, its not Karate!

Dare I say that karate without kata is a sort of simplified version, but let me explain why I think this before I get slaughtered!

I went to a club once when looking for a Wado club, that did traditional Wado Ryu together with Freestyle karate. There was a clear separation of the two, those who did freestyle did not learn kata nor were they required to learn and use japanese terminology. The Traditional Wado side, obviously, were required to learn these. The reason I was given for this division was that a few members really had some serious difficulty in learning kata and remembering terminology. I raised an eyebrow or two at this, particularly where more members were choosing freestyle in which students reached 1st Dan on a ratio of 4 for every 1 Wado!?!

Just a little food for thought!

I have no problem with people who wish to study Freestyle karate but it does make me a little annoyed when they can progress so quickly through the ranks without actually studying the details of the art through Kata.

When I started Karate way back when, a friend of mine started Kickboxing instead...after two years I was a senior Kyu grade and after 1 year he had attained Black Belt! I trained at least 6 hours per week (3 x 2 hours sessions) and he trained 2 (2 x 1hr sessions)! Difference was no Kata, no terminology!

[Dobbersky]

I'm going to throw a different view in now.

What if the Kata/Hyung/Poomsae is only there to pass grades!!!! Like with TaeKwonDo, Tang Soo Do or GoKan Ryu etc

They do nothing with the kata except use it to get from one belt to the other. For this the kata actually has no use. they might as have to remember a few combinations or "create" their own Kata/Form for each grade.

Kata is only important to Karate*IF* it is used as a part of one's training. if one works on Bunkai or similar for each kata. Its worked for Self Defence and other parts of one's training etc.

If not then there's no reason why it can't be removed from the syllabus completely. and the style WILL be complete with just Kihon, Combinations and Self Defence techniques