Karate with no Soul?

[MasterPain]

Can you have a style at all with no Kata???

I think this is the question that bothers me here. I can get that Karate may not be Karate without kata. Why do we say "just kickboxing" concerning an art with no kata? What's wrong with kickboxing? What's wrong with wrestling? Or fencing? Or Aikido?

Not a thing wrong with them at all; they are what they are and so is their methodologies.

So often the question of karate with no kata turns into an indirect bashing of all things non-karate.

So basically, with no kata, it should just be called by another name?

[sensei8]

Can you have a style at all with no Kata???

I think this is the question that bothers me here. I can get that Karate may not be Karate without kata. Why do we say "just kickboxing" concerning an art with no kata? What's wrong with kickboxing? What's wrong with wrestling? Or fencing? Or Aikido?

Not a thing wrong with them at all; they are what they are and so is their methodologies.

So often the question of karate with no kata turns into an indirect bashing of all things non-karate.

So basically, with no kata, it should just be called by another name?

Again...Solid post!!

[SamsIAmz]

Many martial arts have "kata" but not the typical karate view of kata. In judo and jujutsu, there are kata but rather than being a sequence of predetermined moves, it is a sort of list of techniques. One could make the argument that karate without the formal patterns, still has kata if series of techniques and partner exercises are taught.

Under this definition of kata though, most martial arts would be classified as having kata.

[Harkon72]

I agree totally with sensei8, Karate with no Kata is just Kickboxing; Combinations and sparring without the big K. Kata is the Spiritual Vehicle for Karatedo.

[bushido_man96]

Kata is Karate, and without it, it's an empty shell; all three of the K's must be there or it's not karate, imho!! Kata is the heart of karate, and kata is the soul of karate...by all means...absolutely.

Imho...the main part of karate is the study of kata. Do they know the kata? I mean really know the kata, not the sequence of the movements, but the heart and the core of the kata. The point of studying kata, and not just performing it, because the two are night and day, and in that, to study the kata is to learn what the applications of the techniques are, and how to use them.

Learning how to apply our power, how to move, how to react, and so on and so forth. These things you can learn from studying the kata, and then kumite with a purpose, not just known movements, but movements that echo kata.

My question and concern with any forms training, is can you learn the things proposed to be learned in the forms, without the forms? If you learn the applications through the forms, then why not focus more on the applications, and less on the forms. Because it appears that if the applications are what is important, especially for self-defense, then why not do what is important for that aspect of the training?

This is why I wonder about forms sometimes. I think they can be a good tool. But I don't think they are always the most important tool, or the most necessary tool.

[bushido_man96]

Can you have a style at all with no Kata???

I think this is the question that bothers me here. I can get that Karate may not be Karate without kata. Why do we say "just kickboxing" concerning an art with no kata? What's wrong with kickboxing? What's wrong with wrestling? Or fencing? Or Aikido?

Not a thing wrong with them at all; they are what they are and so is their methodologies.

So often the question of karate with no kata turns into an indirect bashing of all things non-karate.

So basically, with no kata, it should just be called by another name?

I'm not sure it even would have to be called by another name. After all, Karate originally meant "China hand," and then became "Empty Hand." Not "Kata Hand," or "Kata Empty Hand," or anything like that.

I also agree that just because someone chose to taught Karate without kata, that it would be denigrated to being just "Kickboxing."

[Harkon72]

I don't want to sound pompous, but it's a fact that a higher spiritual Consciousness can be achieved through the practice of Kata. I have had a change in awareness at the very least. It can bring you closer to the "Do" in Karatedo, a oneness, a symphony with the Style you practice. I believe you can surf the wave of Kata. This is difficult for me to touch by just performing endless Kihon or combinations. Kata is a link with the past.

[bushido_man96]

Is it really a fact? Are there studies that conclude this? There are those who have achieved similar levels in Aikido, a style devoid of kata practice, yet very spiritual in and of itself.

As far as "Do" goes; that's a subject I don't truly get wound up about. Not every Martial Art is about the "Do," and therefore not every Martial Artist is concerned with it, and so I think one can study Karate without concerning oneself with "Do."

I'm sure this will gain me even more popularity than I am winning now, , but I don't think the "Do" mindset or path is necessary to every Martial Art or Martial Artist.

[MasterPain]

I don't want to sound pompous, but it's a fact that a higher spiritual Consciousness can be achieved through the practice of Kata. I have had a change in awareness at the very least. It can bring you closer to the "Do" in Karatedo, a oneness, a symphony with the Style you practice. I believe you can surf the wave of Kata. This is difficult for me to touch by just performing endless Kihon or combinations. Kata is a link with the past.

Define spiritual Consciousness. Through the lens of which worldview are we looking? Ever sit zazen, trying to cast of body-mind? Om Mani Padme Hum chant? Serpent handling with hillbilly Pentecostals? Suspension by hooks?

[Harkon72]

For me "Do" means path or way. It is the steps in our journey towards our better self. Karate is just a tool to fashion the person towards a surer step, a path of character and honor. Consciousness is a focus in time, a reality that can be balanced by spiritual training. Each is unique, it has the color of your existence on the canvas of the universe. Mind what you have learned, save you it can, it is the way of the Force!