Observing the symptoms and finding the cause

[DWx]

This thread isn't really just aimed at instructor's but I thought it'd probably be most appropriate here.

At what stage did you guys start really being able to say why a student's technique was wrong?

I've been training for about 11 years now but it's only more recently that I've found myself actually being able to work backwards and pinpoint the cause. I'm not talking about the obvious things like when the student isn't punching centre or their body position is wrong and you say so and correct it, but being able to work backwards and say that their punch is wrong because there's this problem with their stance and it's affecting this and results in that. I guess what I'm getting at is when did you move past looking at the symptoms of bad technique and start understanding the causes?

[sensei8]

This thread isn't really just aimed at instructor's but I thought it'd probably be most appropriate here.

At what stage did you guys start really being able to say why a student's technique was wrong?

I've been training for about 11 years now but it's only more recently that I've found myself actually being able to work backwards and pinpoint the cause. I'm not talking about the obvious things like when the student isn't punching centre or their body position is wrong and you say so and correct it, but being able to work backwards and say that their punch is wrong because there's this problem with their stance and it's affecting this and results in that. I guess what I'm getting at is when did you move past looking at the symptoms of bad technique and start understanding the causes?

Great topic and what a great question!!

I don't think one ever gets past the one to move on to the other because they walk hand in hand; they both must be understood equally, tangibly, and honestly.

I don't imagine that one can see the cause without noticing the bad technique, and vise versa, in the first place; totally inseparable. When I see you do something incorrect, which doesn't serve said technique, I immediately also see the cause. As a MA instructor, I can't see one without the other; that would be an oxymoron.

Seeing them inseparable does them both justice across the board. To be stuck on one or the other delves them deeply into incorrect analysis across the board.

I think...therefore I do...I see...therefore I saw...

This is my preface...

[ninjanurse]

Movement analysis skills are developed by breaking down movements and techniques into the basic parts, and then learning to identify those parts in your own practice. You have to look at the results of each action and the factors that affect the outcome. This is accomplished by many hours of practice and self-study and eventually you will be able to recognize those actions in others and be able to verbalize to them how to effect change.

[Rateh]

I remember as a new instructor I would watch a student do a technique, and I would think to myself that something is definitely wrong...but what? It took probably 2-3 years as an instructor before I could look at most techniques and immediately know what was wrong. A few more years and I could identify the root cause, and learn what worked on correcting a student.

For example a student is kicking the target with the side of their foot for a roundhouse kick...what is wrong? Well generally they are kicking with the side because they didn't turn their hip and bend their knee. But further than that, they didn't rotate their base foot. (Which makes them unable to turn their hip, and from there unable to kick with the instep). So you can see how one act influences another and one cause CAUSES another.

I'd say the more students you work with, the quicker you will learn to identify what is wrong, and what the root cause (or causes) are. Working with a few students for years will not give you nearly the experience of working with a hundred students over one year. (And if you don't teach, so you are only ever correcting your own body, it will take much much longer to learn to understand the causes)

Every body moves differently, everyone has different trouble, but eventually you will see that most people have the same general reasons why their technique isn't working.

[DWx]

I remember as a new instructor I would watch a student do a technique, and I would think to myself that something is definitely wrong...but what? It took probably 2-3 years as an instructor before I could look at most techniques and immediately know what was wrong. A few more years and I could identify the root cause, and learn what worked on correcting a student.

For example a student is kicking the target with the side of their foot for a roundhouse kick...what is wrong? Well generally they are kicking with the side because they didn't turn their hip and bend their knee. But further than that, they didn't rotate their base foot. (Which makes them unable to turn their hip, and from there unable to kick with the instep). So you can see how one act influences another and one cause CAUSES another.

I'd say the more students you work with, the quicker you will learn to identify what is wrong, and what the root cause (or causes) are. Working with a few students for years will not give you nearly the experience of working with a hundred students over one year. (And if you don't teach, so you are only ever correcting your own body, it will take much much longer to learn to understand the causes)

Every body moves differently, everyone has different trouble, but eventually you will see that most people have the same general reasons why their technique isn't working.

This is exactly what I'm talking about I think why I'm only really starting to see the roots now is that I'm taking a more active role in helping to assist in class and am working with lower grades for a change. For the past 4-5 years I've only really been in the dojang for myself because of my schedule and even then it's been in sessions with other blackbelts only so I've not even been exposed to lower grades much.

For example one of the mid-level colour belts was looking like their punches weren't doing much. Simple solution was to speed the arm up because it was moving too slow but because in my style we say the technique and stance finish as one, speeding up his arm would have meant out of sync, less use of mass and an even poorer looking technique. When properly looking at him, you could see his stance transitions were off because he'd hover the moving leg slightly before accelerating. Taking that a step back even further and it was because he wasn't getting the weight distribution right and so was hovering his leg to regain balance momentarily. So really for a more powerful punch, the solution for him was to look at how he was stepping through and his weight management. It's weird but it's almost like those "a-ha!" eureka moments you have as a student but now as a teacher too.

[bushido_man96]

I don't imagine that one can see the cause without noticing the bad technique, and vise versa, in the first place; totally inseparable. When I see you do something incorrect, which doesn't serve said technique, I immediately also see the cause. As a MA instructor, I can't see one without the other; that would be an oxymoron.

I see what you are saying here, Bob, but I see what Danielle is asking, too. And after being an instructor for so long, I can understand your answer.

But, I think what Danielle is asking, is when, as a Martial Artist in general, did you start to see not only that a technique was "wrong," but why it was wrong, and what said student was doing that made it wrong or inefficient or whatever.

I don't think I can pinpoint when this came about for me. It was probably around the time I was earning my original black belt when I was in the ATA. I was doing more teaching, and I was learning to not only see what it was that a student was doing wrong, but also figuring out how to correct it, and how to describe this to each individual student, as each one learns differently. I'm still getting better and better at this to this day.

Its kind of fun for me when a student presents a challenge in being able to ascertain where they are going wrong, and then explaining it and demonstrating it to them so they understand and register how to work on correcting it.

Its one of the truly fun aspects of teaching.

[Evil Dave]

This is a matter of experience, as a student, assistant instructor and instructor. Also, instructors need specific 'instructor' training ~ some black belts out there think because they have a black belt they are qualified to be an instructor!

A few years ago I took a coaches course on Olympic Lifting and throughout the course we never lifted nothing more than a lifting bar. When we messed up, and we did regularly, it was not the person lifting that got yelled at {the instructor trainer was an old marine and high school fitness teacher...}, it was that persons training partner. He/she was supposed to be watching and correcting you. It was one of the best courses on 'watching' and being able to not only see what the person was doing, but what was going on and why! Now I can spot an issue with almost anybodies lifts from across the gym. I have been lucky in also been able to transfer this across to Karate.

[sensei8]

I don't imagine that one can see the cause without noticing the bad technique, and vise versa, in the first place; totally inseparable. When I see you do something incorrect, which doesn't serve said technique, I immediately also see the cause. As a MA instructor, I can't see one without the other; that would be an oxymoron.

I see what you are saying here, Bob, but I see what Danielle is asking, too. And after being an instructor for so long, I can understand your answer.

But, I think what Danielle is asking, is when, as a Martial Artist in general, did you start to see not only that a technique was "wrong," but why it was wrong, and what said student was doing that made it wrong or inefficient or whatever.

I don't think I can pinpoint when this came about for me. It was probably around the time I was earning my original black belt when I was in the ATA. I was doing more teaching, and I was learning to not only see what it was that a student was doing wrong, but also figuring out how to correct it, and how to describe this to each individual student, as each one learns differently. I'm still getting better and better at this to this day.

Its kind of fun for me when a student presents a challenge in being able to ascertain where they are going wrong, and then explaining it and demonstrating it to them so they understand and register how to work on correcting it.

Its one of the truly fun aspects of teaching.

Thank you Brian!!

I started to move past looking at the symptoms of bad technique and start understanding the causes when I was a JBB, but that was solidified within me when I was a Nidan; Dai-Soke was more than a great Sensei. Things just started to click with me in understanding things about my own karate-do, I mean, I've had many, many aha moments and I'm quite sure that during one of these many, many aha moments, some bell somewhere went off.

Is this what Danielle is asking?

[DWx]

^ Yes Bob, that's kinda what I'm getting at. I guess in a sense I'm trying to say, when did you move past the superficial level of just saying a technique is wrong and giving a correction for it to being able to move back along the chain and see why they were trying to do it that way in the first place.

A lot of the time, for me, corrections I give tend to be centred around stances and stance transitions which if wrong, through a chain then affect the strikes and kicks themselves. The signs we see when something is wrong is manifested in the kicks and punches (i.e. the symptoms) and more often than not, the right correction to give for a better punch isn't to do something different with the arm itself but usually it's in the feet, the weight and the body posture first.

I guess in my training why I'm only developing this way of looking at techniques relatively later on compared to you guys is because I just haven't been around lower grades particularly for the last 5 or so years. I've only really been around higher grades than myself or my peers.

[bushido_man96]

This is a matter of experience, as a student, assistant instructor and instructor. Also, instructors need specific 'instructor' training ~ some black belts out there think because they have a black belt they are qualified to be an instructor!

This is so true. That was one thing that was nice in the ATA was that they had a structure laid out for becoming an instructor, and we had various clinics and what not that we participated in to work on teaching techniques.