To get more Karatekas into MMA

[tallgeese]

Interesting topic.

I have a couple of thoughts on the matter. Bearing in mind that I came out of a karate based system myself and competed early on in MMA type events, starting with shootfighting and moving into various independent events. Also bear in mind, this was a long time ago when MMA was in it's infancy and we didn't even really know what to call it yet, it was prior to today's standardization and amateur level only. That's just in the interest of full disclosure.

Several people have hit it on the head, it would (and does) mean a radical change from "traditional" training. There's a need for total commitment to training within the rules of the venue. That will mean dropping off what does not fit. Weapons, tactics disallowed, kata (I will disagree, respectfully with sensei8 here, I think there are plenty of ways karateka can exist without kata but that's another debate ).

I would stop working outside the ruleset for a given fight (yes, they changed back then) a couple of months out. The debate if kata teaches you x or y skill that would be useful is moot. To train situationally, and live, for a fight that is going to happen in 6 weeks, you need to actually be training the moves. Not sorting thru a moving textbook of kata of decode them. It's a difference in the prep.

At a deeper level, there are things that karate guys do that are bad news given the reality of the rules. Stance work is different, more mobile and not as deep. Additionally, it's more frontal to be able to account for the takedowns. These are the kinds of things that are so engrained in karate guys that it's hard to break. Some guys (Machida) can make it work. I submit to you that no everyone prepping for their first fight is as good as Machida.

This brings us to another point, brought up already but a must to mention. No karate system I have ever seen will prepare an MMA fighter to work on the ground. I came out of joint lock heavy system and thought in my young exuberance that this would prove helpful. It didn't. You'll need to learn to wrestle and do BJJ, maybe do some judo as well. Judo alone won't cover you're ground need largely due to the ruleset that they've used for the last few decades which has steadily grown more restrictive.

There are a lot of attribute developed by karate that would be useful. But be prepared to change your training and conditioning patterns and seek out some different arts (MT and BJJ and some wrestling) which have been shown for a decade to be very effective under the modern rules of MMA.

Karate people can probably be encouraged to become invovled more by being allowed to expolore these things. Or have instructors start to model normal karate training after MMA training.

The second has, as been pointed out, started to occur. And this is a good thing. It brings "aliveness" to training and a higher level of combat conditioning. It can even be used with "traditional" things like weapons and restricted tactics if done right. It can produce a better fighter, more capable of defending himself on the street, faster.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the input here, tallgeese. Great points, to consider.

It will be interesting to see if more "traditional" style dojos start to adapt to more "alive" training using MMA adapted approaches.

[JusticeZero]

You call it "alive". My terms for it are less positive. The demands of duelling are not necessarily the same as the demands of someone who has to deal with random situational things. If you introduce things that are outside of the rules of MMA, some of those things may be less than optimal, and when you are trying to train people to fight people who can be expected to use a LOT of things that you can't use in MMA, then trying to make people conform to a completely different martial art with a restricted encounter profile is no longer a no-brainer.

[tallgeese]

I might disagree a bit, Justice. A well trained MMA fighter brings a lot to conflict very quickly. Much more quickly in most cases than traditionally trained artist.

For instance, with no kata, one steps, weapons, ect. the new MMA student within 6 months of training will be able to:

jab, cross, and move pretty well from a basic stance

do a take down or two okay

defend them even better

and finally know a couple of basic grappling positions.

Now, because all their training has been live and not theoritical in nature, and because they can do all of the above for real on mitts, and each other, at pretty high levels of speed and contact, they are much more prepared for an unexpected situation because they can REACT as they've trained without any "what if" factor about other tactics that can't be used real time (eye gouges, ect.)

It's potent. Now, I admit that there are things that they aren't prepared as well for. Weapons, ect. come to mind. Multiple attackers is another. However, their mindset is usually more aggressive leading them to have certain advantages as well. No art is without blind spots. These sorts of things are the blind spots for MMA fighters using their skills for sd.

But it is still a good combative base. In a lot of cases, maybe better than some systems of Asian arts as they are often taught.

[straightblast]

If 2 guys join a MMA gym and one has no prior training at all and the other a solid base in a good karate school, then after 6 months of recieving the same MMA training the Karate guy should have the advantage. This of course based on the Karate school.

[bushido_man96]

If 2 guys join a MMA gym and one has no prior training at all and the other a solid base in a good karate school, then after 6 months of recieving the same MMA training the Karate guy should have the advantage. This of course based on the Karate school.

But what do you consider a "good, solid base?" Also, where the stand-up skills might go in favor of the KarateKa, they will likely be more equal in the ground game, which is where the "advantage" of the KarateKa could be nullified to an extent.

[straightblast]

A solid base would be a good understanding of the basics,stances,footwork,striking and defending, something which is an individual thing and not necessarily a rank thing. Time Spent with hard contact sparring.

The advantage about MMA is that karate guy can work his techniques into the dynamics of it all, kinda like a laboratory and figure out how to make them work.

I do not think the ground work would totally be nullified , lots of the karate holds, joint locks, arm bars and wrist locks , blocks, punches work on the ground, you have to learn to make them work. This is strictly speaking someone with a karate background VS someone with no background.

Regards

[jrharbar]

Well i don't agree, all martial arts or artists are a master in there own right like for example traditional training wold make a lot of other martial arts a lot more effective.

i wold have Boxers do makiwara training for there jabs, straits, crosses in general strait punches., not for power thought more along the line of form, posture, and accuracy., Power and speed wold come naturally.

and i wold also get some karate fighters in to some ground work.

all forms of martial arts are awesome., i recommend not to practice you're style but study you're style, the more you know and learn the easier it becomes to adapt new moves and "Technics"

[bushido_man96]

I don't know if "traditional" training would be good for all styles of Martial Arts.

Take the makiwara training from your example. A Boxer won't benefit as much training there, becasue they are going to be more concerned with making their punches work with their footwork. They also strike with big gloves on. Knuckle conditioning isn't a big issue for them. I think you'd also be surprised at the amount of power they generate with a simple jab. Sure, on could train jabs on the makiwara, but for a Boxer, punching a bag gives more of the feedback they want. As far as accuracy goes, they train that with their focus mitts and speed bags, which have the added benefit of moving while striking.

[Nevinyrral]

I'd say it would be good if there were more low level mma competitions and seminars to allow karatekas to improve and test their skill