To get more Karatekas into MMA

[bushido_man96]

This was a reply I made to this comment by judobrah in this thread: http://www.karateforums.com/for-kyokushin-karatecas-video-vt43815-10.html

I felt this topic deserved to have its own discussion thread. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

I don't know, but I find this (full contact standup karate) soooo much more epic than MMA fights.

i couldnt agree more,i hope one day i will get to compete in knockdown karate

there are still good figthers with a karate backround in mma(like gsp,lyoto machida e.t.c),but whe dont see karate being that used,even too its proven it can be very effective

Part of it has to be the desire of the Karateka's to want to compete, and then dedicate their training schedule to do so.

Those who have, have altered their training to be more MMA'esque, and have basically dedicated the time needed to train in a competitive schedule. Its less basics and katas practice, and more sparring, pad work, bag work, conditioning, and then the added grappling element needed to compete.

The main hindrance, in my opinion, is the lack of established MMA gyms by a Karate based coached. By and large, your MMA gyms are Thai/BJJ based, or some derivative therein.

The secondary hindrance is that when many folks come into MMA gyms, they are competition driven, and the gyms are competition focused. You don't have customers coming into MMA gyms saying they want to earn their black belt in Karate before they start competing.

So, if more dedicated Karatekas wanted to see competitors in MMA do things "the Karate way," then you'd be looking at a Karate school that teaches a Karate-based curriculum, holding gradings and moving the students through the ranks to black belt, and then perhaps to 2nd or 3rd dan,(because a 1st degree black belt just means they have the basics down), and then once they achieve a suitable rank, put them forth in the competition world. And that's assuming the Karate school has been able to provide the grappling background the competitors will need to survive a round in MMA competition.

So, in order to see more "Karate style" MMA fighters, you have to either be content with the occasional arrival of a diamond in the rough like Machida, or some Karate schools are going to have to make some changes to the way they promote and train students in order to prepare them more efficiently for the MMA ring.

That's my take, anyways. Thoughts?

[SamsIAmz]

You started to touch upon something I think is intriguing: It is very rare you will find a karateka with the motivation to compete in MMA type matches.

Traditional karate, in my opinion, is a largely spiritual practice. Many of the founding fathers/masters of the art extol the spiritual benefits. Even the name (being "empty hand") signifies the spirit component--that being the emptiness, or the letting go. Compared to other martial arts which arguably have less of a spiritual component such as BJJ or muay thai, you aren't as likely to get as much individuals starting karate with the goals of competing.

An exception might be kyokushin, however even then there is little motivation to participate in MMA. Afterall Kyokushin is already a respectable competitive sport. If a person wants to excel in kyokushin, they will likely train for kyokushin and not focus as much on the techniques neccesary to excel in MMA. While there is some cross over between the two sports, they do have some differences and if you want to excel on a highly competitive level, you have to train specifically for that sport.

[bushido_man96]

Although there is a spiritual aspect that is usually portrayed in Karate practice, it is largely up to the practitioner to observe and follow said philosophies. Many still have a desire to participate, and many of the past greats, like Norris, Wall, Uriquedez, and Wallace, were all great competitors, but that doesn't mean they didn't adhere to the philosophical aspects of the art.

[ShoriKid]

Man, big can of worms topic here, one I thought about and you beat me to the punch bushido_man. How can more karate stylists make it into MMA? It takes a couple of things I believe. I will take a change in understanding of who you are trying to reach if you're a karate instructor. It will take a change in training methodologies by most "traditional"* karate instructors and a change in venue/competitive structure.

Starting with those things in order I suppose. The first change is the understanding who the karate instructors are trying to reach. They have to target, mostly, young men who are athletic and competitive individuals to start with. MMA fighters are driven to compete and need to have some athletic ability to build off of if they hope to have a good career as a fighter. If they are not driven they won't put up with the level of training, the intensity and the daily grind of it. Being a fighter my sound great to a lot of young people. Put them on a diet, making them do strength and conditioning regularly and put in 2 hours at the gym training every day as well. Oh, and unless you're lucky, work a job/teach as well. That grind requires the fighter to personally enjoy the struggle just as much as the win in the ring. If not, they will fold under the grind. And the student that karate instructor is courting to join their dojo needs to understand that type of personality. Learn to capitalize on it to bring the types of people who will train to fight. Karate instructors right now cast such a wide net trying to bring in everyone so they can build a class. The instructor will have to put it right out front his dojo is focused on fighting. No point sparring tournaments, not Kyokushin knock down fighting, but MMA/Kickboxing. That the contact levels will be high a lot of nights and that the work expected is hard. Let prospective students see that you're serious about getting them into the fight circuit and be able to name organizations that you have at least some contacts with to get them fight experience. Feed that competitive desire. Don't advertise as a self defense class, a fitness class or anything else. That's not going to be your primary goal for your students and they should realize that. If you have a standard "traditional" karate class you are offering, it should be marketed separately and conducted completely away from the MMA/competitive fighting side of things. Don't mingle them and don't even try to. Know your audience and how to draw them in.

The change in training methodology will be a big break from what most "traditional" karate schools and one you will have to make. You will need to build basic techniques, but along side those you need to be making use of impact equipment, live sparing that lines up with the competitive out let and conditioning. Lining up to do basics is fine, but you can't spend the whole class doing that every night. Yes, build that strong foundation on techniques, but them use those techniques to hit pads and shields. You learn to hit things hard by, well, hitting things hard. A proper punch thrown in the air is all well and good. But, if that pretty punch never has to actually run against physical resistance then it's not a truly good punch. Along with those mits, pads, shields being added in, here's a dirty thing to most "traditional" karate guys as well. Look at other arts, see what they are doing well. If it can be incorporated into the frame work of your karate, or fills a hole, it needs to be considered for use. Hook punches and upper cuts have their place in an MMA fight, or any real fight for that matter. Know them, learn them and learn to defend them. Sparring will need to change too. Stop and go point sparring has no place in training for MMA. It fosters groups of techniques that don't work when you keep moving continuously, leads to strategies that won't work and gets the fighter used to breaks in the action that just aren't going to happen that way. Sparring needs to mimic the competition model or it's not productive. The use of karate's techniques and strategies for controlling distance, breaking engagement and controlling the angles need to be worked into sparring and be a key thing the karate fighter bent on MMA success is looking to develop. Ground work will have to be incorporated into the training. If the instructor doesn't have that training themselves, they will have to bring it in from outside if they are to offer everything in one dojo/gym. Also, they'll have to look at how that ground training is incorporated into their fight strategy should be informed by their karate training.

The change in competitive model is perhaps one of the easiest to understand. The instructor will have to make contacts with promoters who are involved in ami/pro MMA in their area. Doing the same with kick boxing would be advisable as well. The point/semi contact tournaments aren't a benefit to MMA fighters and training to compete in them isn't going to be helpful. If there aren't any organizations close enough, be ready to travel. However, in the US at least, finding an organization in your home state won't be that hard. May have to drive to get to fights, but there will be something out these days.

So, getting more karate based fighters into MMA isn't impossible. However, it will require a concerted effort on the part of the instructors who want to see this happen. They can't continue to teach the same way that many have, with a goal that isn't MMA competition and expect to see a change. "Traditional" approaches have got to change.

*My quotes around that word have to do with my opinions on what really is traditional and not in karate training today. Enough of a rant/exposition to rate it's very own forum topic. The short of which is that very, very much of what is considered traditional by many karateka today is nothing of the sort.

[JohnnyB]

Lyoto Machida is a very good example for Karatekas wishing to enter MMA competition.

His qualifications are:

3rd Dan Black belt in Shotokan

Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (under Walter Broca)

Black belt in Judo

Before entering MMA he also competed in Karate Tournaments proving he had decent athletic condition.

The main controversy here would be the rarity of a MMA gym to train you on the skill sets mentioned above since its known that the Machida family own a dojo/gym.

Myself, I would love to see an MMA fighter coming from a Kyokushin (or other full contact Karate) and BJJ background. It would be more aggressive and satisfying to watch.

[sensei8]

Imho...

For the most and in part, sport sparring is deficient because those karateka's interested in the MMA venue do not have experience of real karate, and therefore little control.

In the world of sport karate practitioners execute unneccessary and illogical movements with each other to bring new extremes to the competition floor to win that, to them, all important trophy/medal.

Most "experienced" karateka's are only beginners, and in the venue of MMA, they're outclassed right from out of the gate. Harsh statement? No...an honest statement.

Most karateka's have absolute NO GROUND ABILITIES, and the little they do have, they quickly discover that it's not enough to counter the most basic ground attack.

As karateka's learn more and more ground skills and become well tenured in that venue, maybe. and I feel it's a big maybe, more and more karateka's will enter the octagon more willingly. Those karateka's who truly want to enter the MMA world, and whom are sincere in their quest/desire, then they will achieve the needed experience before crossing the MMA threshold with any confidence...but that will take many, many years of training.

Yes, there are few karateka's within the MMA world, but few isn't enough to make a noticeable dent.

[bushido_man96]

I think the way we will be seeing most Karatekas entering MMA right now is through the exceptionally talented and/or hardworking practitioners who achieve a high level Karate background, then move into the MMA environment through an MMA gym, and then end up spending less time in the Karate environment, and more in the MMA training environment. But, they will have that "Karate background." I think this is how we will see the few and far between Karatekas pop up, like Machida, that the more traditional Karatekas will want to see more of in MMA.

Lyoto Machida is a very good example for Karatekas wishing to enter MMA competition.

His qualifications are:

3rd Dan Black belt in Shotokan

Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (under Walter Broca)

Black belt in Judo

Yes, Machida is a good example of a Karateka in MMA. But, he also has those other credentials. And when you watch him fight, there really is no doubt he is a Karateka first in the ring. But, Machida doesn't train in the traditional way that Karate schools do. If he did, his training schedule would be crazy, and that alone demonstrates how hard it would be for traditional Karatekas to find the training time to prepare for MMA competition. Most of us have families and jobs to do.

ShoriKid, that was a great response. The one thing I would disagree with you on is that I think Kyokushin stylists might actually have a leg up on other Karate stylists, due to the level of training and contact they have in their fighting style.

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone. Great discussion.

[sensei8]

I think the way we will be seeing most Karatekas entering MMA right now is through the exceptionally talented and/or hardworking practitioners who achieve a high level Karate background, then move into the MMA environment through an MMA gym, and then end up spending less time in the Karate environment, and more in the MMA training environment. But, they will have that "Karate background." I think this is how we will see the few and far between Karatekas pop up, like Machida, that the more traditional Karatekas will want to see more of in MMA.

However, the rules/regulations governing these venue's prohibit many techniques that would normally be used by karateka's trained in them.

Karate traditionalists in the MMA? Old school types might view MMA as nothing more than sport, and in that, sport karate is below them because they view those as kuchibushi; those who teach karate with their mouths and never get their gi dirty.

I think a karate infestation that karateka's might hope for is at its zenith.

[bushido_man96]

I think the way we will be seeing most Karatekas entering MMA right now is through the exceptionally talented and/or hardworking practitioners who achieve a high level Karate background, then move into the MMA environment through an MMA gym, and then end up spending less time in the Karate environment, and more in the MMA training environment. But, they will have that "Karate background." I think this is how we will see the few and far between Karatekas pop up, like Machida, that the more traditional Karatekas will want to see more of in MMA.

However, the rules/regulations governing these venue's prohibit many techniques that would normally be used by karateka's trained in them.

I agree, Bob. That's why I think you end up with the few-and-far-between types who choose to eschew some of the more "traditional" techniques in favor of the standard set of punches and kicks, along with more Boxing related defense, and then focus this skill set on the pads, bags, and in sparring practice. Like I think Machida has done with his training.

[JohnnyB]

Basically you would need to take the 'traditional' off karate, to make it into MMA or else it wouldn't stand up to the challenge. I am not talking only about crosstraining but also the abandonment of many Kata techniques and traditional drills that are not effective in an MMA rules enviroment.

After some logical thinking and research, a serious Karateka should know what works and what doesn't, so it comes down to eliminating techniques that are not effective and perfecting the ones that can make you win fights.

Also the MMA Karateka (again like Lyoto Machida and Anderson Silva) should be a master of Tai Sabaki and have the advantage in the tactical and mental game of the fight.