Kata X Dai and Sho

[Dobbersky]

All

I have a question and as I don't practice "traditional" martial arts I'm looking to you guys to give me the answers.

We have various Kata that are practiced that have a "Dai" & a "Sho" variant to the Kata. What is the reason for this, are they completely different Kata or 2 Kata created from one major Kata.

The Kata that follow this concept that come to mind are:

Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho

Kanku Dai & Kanku Sho

Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho

And Albeit a few others that some could add themselves

Thanks

[Wastelander]

As I understand it, Sho and Dai variants of kata are typically just different versions of the same kata as taught by different people. As an example, in his Butoku essay, Chibana Chosin (founder of Shorin-Ryu) wrote the following:

I remember learning the kata Tadawa no Patsai (Passai/Bassai) from Tawada Sensei. At the time I was receiving instruction from Itosu and he, too, taught a version of Patsai kata which he called Matsumura no Patsai, which I learned. In 1913 or 1914, having practiced the Tawada no Patsai with all my heart, as was the custom back then, I approached Itosu and advised him of this. He asked me to demonstrate the kata for him. I did and Itosu then stated to me that was the finest performance of this rarely seen form that he had ever witnessed. He then told me that this form mut be preserved and passed on to future generations and to add it to his (my) teachings. So the Matsumura no Patsai is now called Patsai no Sho and the Tawada no Patsai is called Patsai no Dai.

[Dobbersky]

As I understand it, Sho and Dai variants of kata are typically just different versions of the same kata as taught by different people. As an example, in his Butoku essay, Chibana Chosin (founder of Shorin-Ryu) wrote the following:

I remember learning the kata Tadawa no Patsai (Passai/Bassai) from Tawada Sensei. At the time I was receiving instruction from Itosu and he, too, taught a version of Patsai kata which he called Matsumura no Patsai, which I learned. In 1913 or 1914, having practiced the Tawada no Patsai with all my heart, as was the custom back then, I approached Itosu and advised him of this. He asked me to demonstrate the kata for him. I did and Itosu then stated to me that was the finest performance of this rarely seen form that he had ever witnessed. He then told me that this form mut be preserved and passed on to future generations and to add it to his (my) teachings. So the Matsumura no Patsai is now called Patsai no Sho and the Tawada no Patsai is called Patsai no Dai.

Excellent post, Gives me a good Idea of the why and how, thank you my friend

[Harkon72]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

[NRShukokai]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

Same here, particularly with the Kosokun (Kanku) Kata, which also has a third variant, Shiho

[sensei8]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

Solid post!!

Another meaning is Dai means "Big" and Sho means "Small"

Looking a swords, you've got DAIto meaning long sword and SHOto meaning short sword. Hence the word Daisho means big/little.

Bassai Dai consists of 42 movements

Bassai Sho consists of 26 movements

Kanku Dai consists of 65 movements

Kanku Sho consists of 20 movements

Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho both consist of 54 movements

This brings me to the amount of the movements aren't indicative of why one's small and the other's big. Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho. Styles differ across the board in many, many things, and the reason(s) one's called Dai and the other Sho will be determined by ones governing body.

[Wastelander]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

Solid post!!

Another meaning is Dai means "Big" and Sho means "Small"

Looking a swords, you've got DAIto meaning long sword and SHOto meaning short sword. Hence the word Daisho means big/little.

Bassai Dai consists of 42 movements

Bassai Sho consists of 26 movements

Kanku Dai consists of 65 movements

Kanku Sho consists of 20 movements

Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho both consist of 54 movements

This brings me to the amount of the movements aren't indicative of why one's small and the other's big. Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho. Styles differ across the board in many, many things, and the reason(s) one's called Dai and the other Sho will be determined by ones governing body.

If you would like yet another reason for sho being small and dai being large, in my branch of Shorin-Ryu our Passai Sho is very compact, utilizing tight pivots, dropping body weight and small forward motions, whereas our Passai Dai utilizes long lunging forward motions and sliding steps forward, generally taking up more space.

[sensei8]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

Solid post!!

Another meaning is Dai means "Big" and Sho means "Small"

Looking a swords, you've got DAIto meaning long sword and SHOto meaning short sword. Hence the word Daisho means big/little.

Bassai Dai consists of 42 movements

Bassai Sho consists of 26 movements

Kanku Dai consists of 65 movements

Kanku Sho consists of 20 movements

Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho both consist of 54 movements

This brings me to the amount of the movements aren't indicative of why one's small and the other's big. Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho. Styles differ across the board in many, many things, and the reason(s) one's called Dai and the other Sho will be determined by ones governing body.

If you would like yet another reason for sho being small and dai being large, in my branch of Shorin-Ryu our Passai Sho is very compact, utilizing tight pivots, dropping body weight and small forward motions, whereas our Passai Dai utilizes long lunging forward motions and sliding steps forward, generally taking up more space.

That's what I meant when I posted...

Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho.

[Wastelander]

I was told that Dai means Major and Sho means Minor. So they are greater and lesser versions of the same Kata.

Solid post!!

Another meaning is Dai means "Big" and Sho means "Small"

Looking a swords, you've got DAIto meaning long sword and SHOto meaning short sword. Hence the word Daisho means big/little.

Bassai Dai consists of 42 movements

Bassai Sho consists of 26 movements

Kanku Dai consists of 65 movements

Kanku Sho consists of 20 movements

Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho both consist of 54 movements

This brings me to the amount of the movements aren't indicative of why one's small and the other's big. Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho. Styles differ across the board in many, many things, and the reason(s) one's called Dai and the other Sho will be determined by ones governing body.

If you would like yet another reason for sho being small and dai being large, in my branch of Shorin-Ryu our Passai Sho is very compact, utilizing tight pivots, dropping body weight and small forward motions, whereas our Passai Dai utilizes long lunging forward motions and sliding steps forward, generally taking up more space.

That's what I meant when I posted...

Applications/techniques/etc within said kata's might be the main reason as to why one's dai and the other's sho.

Gah! I totally missed that part-sorry about that!