Rank for life

[bushido_man96]

I think once you earn a black belt that you're always a black belt. No one can take that away from you.

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years?

Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago?

Does the belt/rank automatically beget respect? Whether he was a 5th kyu or a 5th dan if he has knowledge and experience that I would deem valuable then that garners some level of respect. But is he a blackbelt if he hasn't trained in any way shape or form for 15 years? I'd say no he isn't. He was but now isn't an active one. An inactive or dormant blackbelt. Just as physical skill requires constant practice and exercise, so does knowledge. I'd wager he'd forget a good chunk of that knowledge after 15 years of inactivity.

To the bold type above...NO!!

I agree with you, Bob. No, it does not automatically beget respect. I should have noted in my example that there was a mutual respect present already between the two individuals I was speaking of.

Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

[CredoTe]

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Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable.

[bushido_man96]

...

Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable.

I agree, as well. I think that there are a lot of shades of grey in this question, and depending on the circumstances, one could decide either way. If someone just ups and quits the MAs, then what? Not a black belt, because they choose to stop training? I can see how some would say no, not a black belt anymore. But then again, I could argue how could it be taken away? The belt can be physically taken from us, true. But how many of us then make the argument that the belt isn't what's important, but the knowledge and experience is? It really is a tough question to answer.

[sensei8]

I think once you earn a black belt that you're always a black belt. No one can take that away from you.

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years?

Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago?

Does the belt/rank automatically beget respect? Whether he was a 5th kyu or a 5th dan if he has knowledge and experience that I would deem valuable then that garners some level of respect. But is he a blackbelt if he hasn't trained in any way shape or form for 15 years? I'd say no he isn't. He was but now isn't an active one. An inactive or dormant blackbelt. Just as physical skill requires constant practice and exercise, so does knowledge. I'd wager he'd forget a good chunk of that knowledge after 15 years of inactivity.

To the bold type above...NO!!

I agree with you, Bob. No, it does not automatically beget respect. I should have noted in my example that there was a mutual respect present already between the two individuals I was speaking of.

Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

YES!!

[sensei8]

...

Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable.

I agree, as well. I think that there are a lot of shades of grey in this question, and depending on the circumstances, one could decide either way. If someone just ups and quits the MAs, then what? Not a black belt, because they choose to stop training? I can see how some would say no, not a black belt anymore. But then again, I could argue how could it be taken away? The belt can be physically taken from us, true. But how many of us then make the argument that the belt isn't what's important, but the knowledge and experience is? It really is a tough question to answer.

The HEART of the legitimate black belt is FOREVER, and in that, the black belt is forever, no matter the circumstances involved.

It's what that governing body says. That governing body can give and take away rank whenever they decide, and in that, not all governing bodies are the same when it comes to the core of this topic/discussion. If your governing body doesn't reduce rank, then cool, but at the same time, if our governing body does reduce rank, then that should be cool as well. My Hombu does, and will reduce rank, Kyu/Dan, if it's warranted to do so!! To even to the extent of reducing rank IS reflected also on paper as well by submitting paperwork into that said students master hard file.

Again...experience/knowledge and the like can never be reduced and/or taken away from said practitioner!! I'll respect a 10th Kyu equally as I would with a 10th Dan, none is better and/or greater than the other, imho.

[DWx]

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Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable.

I agree, as well. I think that there are a lot of shades of grey in this question, and depending on the circumstances, one could decide either way. If someone just ups and quits the MAs, then what? Not a black belt, because they choose to stop training? I can see how some would say no, not a black belt anymore. But then again, I could argue how could it be taken away? The belt can be physically taken from us, true. But how many of us then make the argument that the belt isn't what's important, but the knowledge and experience is? It really is a tough question to answer.

Shades of grey is a good summation of it. In the end it just comes down to personal opinion.

My personal opinion on your above scenario is the same as my previous one. If they are still actively exercising the knowledge side of it and actively retaining that information, say still thinking about moves and applications and still learning, then yes they are still a blackbelt. If they stopped training physically (through no fault of their own) but also subsequently stopped mentally training then they are a former blackbelt.

Quite often we talk about blackbelt being the beginning of one's training and that the journey doesn't stop once you reach 1st dan. And I think that's a key concept to being a blackbelt - you are still learning. "Dan" 段 does mean "step" after all so you've got to keep climbing to be still be called a blackbelt.

[CredoTe]

...

Now, lets add to the scenario. What if something happened and he couldn't train any more? Some debilitating disease that broke down his body, causing a slow demise, during which time he couldn't train. Still a black belt?

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable.

I agree, as well. I think that there are a lot of shades of grey in this question, and depending on the circumstances, one could decide either way. If someone just ups and quits the MAs, then what? Not a black belt, because they choose to stop training? I can see how some would say no, not a black belt anymore. But then again, I could argue how could it be taken away? The belt can be physically taken from us, true. But how many of us then make the argument that the belt isn't what's important, but the knowledge and experience is? It really is a tough question to answer.

Shades of grey is a good summation of it. In the end it just comes down to personal opinion.

My personal opinion on your above scenario is the same as my previous one. If they are still actively exercising the knowledge side of it and actively retaining that information, say still thinking about moves and applications and still learning, then yes they are still a blackbelt. If they stopped training physically (through no fault of their own) but also subsequently stopped mentally training then they are a former blackbelt.

Quite often we talk about blackbelt being the beginning of one's training and that the journey doesn't stop once you reach 1st dan. And I think that's a key concept to being a blackbelt - you are still learning. "Dan" 段 does mean "step" after all so you've got to keep climbing to be still be called a blackbelt.

IMHO, both of your responses, bushido_man96 and DWx, really illustrate that this subject is truly watery, the difficulty in assigning absolution to it. There's so many ways it could go. Also, IMHO, that's what makes this subject usually a dojo-by-dojo issue; each dojo will deal with it differently.

If there are any absolutes in this, IMHO, I think they're along the lines of what sensei8 mentioned:

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The HEART of the legitimate black belt is FOREVER, and in that, the black belt is forever, no matter the circumstances involved.

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In that, in a legitimate black belt practitioner, s/he will always be a black belt in her/his own heart regardless of exterior circumstances. But, then again, this starts the cycle anew when it comes to formal recognition... and on and on it goes.... where the gray sphere stops, nobody knows...