Pressure Points, Dim Mak, and more...

[darksoul]

Hi guys,

So I've been reading a discussion on another site about pressure points, Dim Mak, and One Touch KO's and thought I would start the discussion here.

I don't practice Dim Mak, but I use pressure points all the time (a good trigger finger in the right place to numb an arm or just inflict ridiculous pain) but I honestly am not a believer in the "one touch knock outs."

Any one here practice Dim Make? What is everyone's opinion on pressure points? What are some of your favourites?

My favourites:

Under the bicep or back of the arm.

Inside of the thigh.

Top of the bicep.

Behind the ear lobe.

Top of the spine just under the base of the skull (think about 2-3 vertebrae down.)

Throat "hole" - where the throat meets the clavicles.

[evergrey]

Pressure points don't work universally. Some people aren't really affected by them much at all.

Me? Well, they hurt, yeah, but I'm likely to just be motivated to hurt you more.

I've tried 'em on some people and not done anything. Others, I win the war of attrition with them... but I would never try to rely on pressure points to save my life in a real fight. It's amazing what anger can overcome, and it is just not a reliable form of pain compliance. Not everyone is easy to numb, either, though I have managed to numb a couple arms and legs with a hard strike to a nerve.

I have seen some crazy things happen with tameshiwari, but I haven't ever seen someone actually knock a person out with a little touch or any kind of energy work. I think some of those "chi masters" have just hypnotized their students and programmed them to respond to certain triggers... whether the "chi masters" are aware of it or not.

I'm also not going to just outright discount everything though. There's a lot of interesting stuff out there in this wide world of ours. I sure haven't seen it all. OSU!

[tallgeese]

I'm not really a fan of the pressure point thing. I've seen too many people that they just don't work on. From my experience, someone with the proper mindset to hurt you can work thru them, alcohol seems to numb them out, and higher end drug use can just flat out render pain reception useless.

So much of application seems to depend on control over the area around the pressure point (ie. head control for the hypoglossial, inter-orbital, ect.) or precision striking. In live events, precision striking is often difficult to do, and if I can gain head control then I want to use it to gain control that is non-dependent on pain compliance but rather bio-mechanics. Locked in control over an individual body is far better than pain compliance in almost any situation.

Pain compliance is hit and miss, as I stated above. A good side control that holds someone down is less theoretical. Once I do something like that, I can control, or go up in force dependent on the situation. Any pressure point applications I've seen had a corresponding tactic to do the same thing that was not dependent on pain compliance and often simpler to deploy. For me, after the analysis it looks like this:

Effective tactic x Simple to deploy under stress = me winning fight

Tactic that relies on an unreliable medium x Difficult to do properly = me getting curbed stomped

But again, that's just what I've noted. Others might have different results.

[Wastelander]

I do have one kyusho/pressure point experience I will share:

My sensei, before he joined the Shorin-Ryu system we currently train, learned much of what he knows about kyusho and tuite while training in Taika Oyata's system. Taika Oyata's group is pretty much the only one I have heard of that can consistently demonstrate their kyusho and tuite effectively on people who don't know what is about to happen. He was once demonstrating an application for a technique from kata and grasped my right wrist with his left hand and applied pressure to a nerve in the underside of my wrist with his fingers then struck a nerve in my upper forearm with his other hand and my legs completely failed underneath me and I dropped to my knees, and he bounced the strike off my arm to my neck where it would have struck the carotid sinus if he hadn't stopped it, which could have made me pass out due to the change in blood pressure (I have not seen this done personally, but have read about surgeons using something like it to make patients pass out for a few seconds in addition to martial artists saying they have seen it). This was with no warning as to what was going to happen and with me being a major skeptic of pressure points and anything associated with ki/chi/qi/energy.

Outside of that one demonstration, my experience with kyusho has been that some of the points hurt and some of them do nothing or very little to me, and when working to apply them to other people I get the same results--some hurt, some do nothing or very little. Typically, I will use pressure points in sparring to make arms or legs hurt or cramp up--typically hammerfists or one-knuckle strikes to the nerves of the forearms during deflections/blocks, or simple leg kicks--or I will use them in grappling to help make space. They are certainly not something I rely on but I will use them if the opportunity presents itself, and if they work then I will continue to utilize them as they become available but if they do not work I don't pursue them.

[darksoul]

Great replies by everyone!

I would like to point out, in response to evergrey and tallgeese, when I use pressure points, I strike them hard, so even if the pressure point doesn't do anything, it'll hurt. It's also not going to be my "go-to" technique in a defense scenario.

That being said, very much enjoyed your responses

@Wastelander - that's interesting. I've never been on the receiving end of that, but I have heard that it does work. I'd love to try it out.

[bushido_man96]

I'm pretty much with tallgeese on this. I don't look to pressure point or dim mak type things as a primary tactic. Its not a bad tool to have in the box, but it is just one tool, and to rely solely on it and not the others is severely limiting your options.

[darksoul]

Its not a bad tool to have in the box, but it is just one tool, and to rely solely on it and not the others is severely limiting your options.

Completely agree

[shinka]

Some people do resist more to pressure point...to a limit.

Some can block blood flow to your brain...even if you're strong....Asleep you will be in 10 seconds. STILL...for most it's for pure pain and some can resist them better than others.

In Hapkido we use pressure points mostly to distract the opponant...

We stryke hard on it, to create pain...to open his hands for an example etc...

It's rarely a single technic. It's 99.9999% followed with a major stryke or take down.

Regarding Dim Mak....I'm not sure. Never saw it for real so can't talk much about it but..... our body is full of energy and this flow of energy can create spectacular power and if we block that flow....it can be very dangerous.

Some of these energy flow are used in acupuncture etc... so they are real but to what level.... That I don't know

[MasterPain]

Hurting someone involves hitting hard or mechanical advantage, regardless of anything else. If you can hit hard enough, you can cause injury by hitting someone in the forehead. But if you can hit JUST AS HARD at an inward and upward angle to a point on the jawline, halfway between the chin and ear, that's much better. The points aren't magic, but they do have some value.

Point is, if you miss, you've still hit them really hard in the face. Of course some people seem imune to being hit really hard in the face, so you may have to hit them some more or maybe grab-push-pull-and-twist (complex torque) something.

[ShoriKid]

Hurting someone involves hitting hard or mechanical advantage, regardless of anything else. If you can hit hard enough, you can cause injury by hitting someone in the forehead. But if you can hit JUST AS HARD at an inward and upward angle to a point on the jawline, halfway between the chin and ear, that's much better. The points aren't magic, but they do have some value.

Point is, if you miss, you've still hit them really hard in the face. Of course some people seem imune to being hit really hard in the face, so you may have to hit them some more or maybe grab-push-pull-and-twist (complex torque) something.

Amen. "Pressure points" are just anatomical weak points on the body. Their use is like an octane boost for the engine of a car. They can improve performance when used right. But, they won't run the engine be themselves and they are no substitute for a powerful engine to start with. Hitting hard along weak lines of the body is never a bad thing.