Another Thing About Rank!!

[sensei8]

In the US Military, one salutes the rank and not the man/woman. In the US Military, one doesn’t have to like and/or respect the one being saluted to; however, soldiers must acknowledge the rank before them.

Why?

US Military rank is undeniable, unquestionable, and irrefutable because any and all US Military bestowed rank has the backing and support of the US Government. Martial arts ranks are not!

MA ranks, at its best, is hoshposh; backed by some individual and/or authoritative governing body. At times, MA ranks aren’t worth the paper they’re written upon.

The unmitigated selfish acts of self-promotions within the MA have tainted the betterment of the MA right down to its very core. So much so that, across the globe, many laypersons has little reason to believe and/or have faith any MA ranks.

For example, some years ago I had read about a well known MAist, whose name is unimportant at this time, holds the 7th Dan, in a well known style, under a well know founder. Then suddenly, and unexpectedly, the well known founder passes away. The splintering begins within this well known style, and by the time the dust settles, this well known MAist is now a 10th Dan.

I couldn’t believe what I was reading. I was shocked and I was appalled and I was angry. I have more respect for a 7th Kyu or 10th Kyu than I do for this 7th Dan who was somehow miracled all the way up to 10th Dan.

What was wrong with being a 7th Dan? NOTHING!! NOT-A-THING!! Pride surly comes before the fall.

Out from the darkness and back into the light, comes a story to show that there’s hope amidst the rank chaos.

I know of this one Okinawan karateka who’s been studying for over 3 decades; he’s well known and well respected. His MA techniques, as well as his knowledge, are far well above his current Dan rank...he’s only a 2nd Dan. Anyone who’s ever meet him, and have had both the honor and privilege to share the floor with him for their first time ask the same resounding questions, in the same bewildered breathe…”You’re only a 2nd Dan?” and “Why haven’t you been promoted higher?”

His answer is fresh, right to the point and so simple, yet very powerful…”That’s the last rank my Sensei tested me for before he retired from teaching.”

In the first example above, I still disrespect this so-called MAist with every fiber of my being. It’s like a slap into the face of every MAist of every rank, and I’m still very angry. In the second example, I still feel an unbelievable amount of pride and respect for any MAist who puts everything above rank, as this Nidan has done.

Ranks…titles…things of this matter must be placed in its proper context always.

Imho.

[darksoul]

This is iffy to say the least.

Fred Villari (founder of Shaolin Kempo) promoted himself to 10th Dan. I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is. He is the founder of the North American Shaolin Kempo style so... I guess it makes sense?

I wouldn't self-promote. I don't feel it's right. I do understand the reasoning behind founders of styles, or last/highest ranked members of the style doing it. If a grand master dies without training someone else to 10th dan, and there are no 10th dans in the style left, are we to lower the number of dans? I think it makes sense, for prosperity, that the highest rank in the style gets promoted to 10th dan as they are now the grand master of the style. Should it be done on a whim? No. I think it should be voted on by the surviving masters of the style.

It's a touchy subject to say the least.

[Chunmonchek]

In the US Military, one salutes the rank and not the man/woman. In the US Military, one doesn’t have to like and/or respect the one being saluted to; however, soldiers must acknowledge the rank before them.

In the first example above, I still disrespect this so-called MAist with every fiber of my being. It’s like a slap into the face of every MAist of every rank, and I’m still very angry. In the second example, I still feel an unbelievable amount of pride and respect for any MAist who puts everything above rank, as this Nidan has done.

Ranks…titles…things of this matter must be placed in its proper context always.

Imho.

Sensei8,

I like and agree with the concept of respecting the rank, and not the individual. Makes much sense to me.

But do you respect the rank of the individual in your first example?

For me, Rank defines nothing more (and nothing less) than the relationship between a teacher and a student. Rank only has any real relevance within a specific dojo or ryuha.

So, within my organization, I require my students to respect all Rank. Other than that, I would expect the requisite courtesy be given to rank from any other organization.

It's a matter of "respect" v. "courtesy". Respect is earned. Courtesy is given until forfeit by poor behavior.

Chris

[bushido_man96]

It appears you showed us the two extremes in your post, Bob. The one, who was already high ranking, and likely skilled, who took a leap and granted his own higher rank. The second, who seems to hold on to his lower rank due to sentimental reasons.

Boy, where to start.....

The first individual seems to be an indication of what the politics of MAs can do to people. I know that at times we have discussed the attainment of higher ranks, like 8th and 9th, and how they are often not physical tests, but granted for the work done for the betterment of a style. I think this is all well and good, so I think its important to take the idea of a self-promoted 10th dan with a grain of salt. Who knows? Maybe he is a very skilled, knowledgeable MAist that can really make his students into fine MAists themselves. Maybe he went a bit on an ego trip to give himself the high 10th dan rank, but felt he needed to in order to separate his version of what he learned from what others would end up teaching. Or maybe it was all ego, who knows.

Now, take the other guy, whom you have some great respect for, who has not taken himself past 2nd dan. To me, its the opposite of this other fellow; this guy has humbled himself to the point that when you find out what his rank is, its like he wants everyone to know he is humble, which in a way, is the opposite of being humble, I guess....anyway, I'm rambling and not making sense.

This goes back to our other thread on what a rank system is supposed to be, and the question is whether or not either of these two are using it appropriately. The 2nd dan should probably be a few ranks higher, if we are going to use the rank system appropriately. Otherwise, he just appears misleading. Same with the 10th dan; what should we expect a 10th dan to be capable of? Can this guy do it? If not, then he is being misleading, too.

Like I've said before, many of us will say rank doesn't matter; until it does, like here.

[sensei8]

In the US Military, one salutes the rank and not the man/woman. In the US Military, one doesn’t have to like and/or respect the one being saluted to; however, soldiers must acknowledge the rank before them.

In the first example above, I still disrespect this so-called MAist with every fiber of my being. It’s like a slap into the face of every MAist of every rank, and I’m still very angry. In the second example, I still feel an unbelievable amount of pride and respect for any MAist who puts everything above rank, as this Nidan has done.

Ranks…titles…things of this matter must be placed in its proper context always.

Imho.

Sensei8,

I like and agree with the concept of respecting the rank, and not the individual. Makes much sense to me.

But do you respect the rank of the individual in your first example?

For me, Rank defines nothing more (and nothing less) than the relationship between a teacher and a student. Rank only has any real relevance within a specific dojo or ryuha.

So, within my organization, I require my students to respect all Rank. Other than that, I would expect the requisite courtesy be given to rank from any other organization.

It's a matter of "respect" v. "courtesy". Respect is earned. Courtesy is given until forfeit by poor behavior.

Chris

Yes, I respect the rank, the 7th Dan in itself, but not the wearer of that said rank...especially the 10th Dan from the first example.

[sensei8]

Great points Brian.

Btw, the Nidan from the second example NEVER goes around saying..."Hey, I'm only a Nidan and here's why." No, he just does his thing and then people ask HIM..."What rank are you?" with a confusing tone in their voice when they ask him, and for the most, he'll ignore the questions all together until the ask'r practically begs for an answer. He shy's away from all of that look at me because he just wants to train. Btw, he wears no Dan indicator on his obi...makes me ashamed that I do.

[DoctorQui]

When it comes to Dan grades, ranking is a funny thing imo. I've always been a believer that you get your Dan grade and THEN you start to learn Karate.

By the time you reach, say, 4th Dan should you not know all the Kata and techniques that the style has to offer, should it be simply a case of developing your own way and teaching others, even starting your own Dojo?? Considering someone who has reached 4th Dan has probably been training for 20 + years, what more technical detail can they really be taught. We have 27 Kata, by 4th Dan you know all Kata and have done since 2nd Dan.

I recognise 5th Dan onwards as being awarded not for technical knowledge or ability but for what the Karateka has actually contributed to the Art. Saying that, self awarding is at the very least iffy and I would also be a little dubious.

Edited August 22, 2012 by DoctorQui

[JustLuke]

Tricky one this.

I think that it is blatantly fraudulent for a person to self-promote themselves to a high rank in an existing style. For example, I have a brown belt in Shotokan and it would be fraudulent for me to promote myself to black belt.

I also think that it is fraudulent for a person to declare that they have a high rank in a "secret martial art", given to them by a "mysterious" and untraceable "master", when what they really have is little formal MA training and what they teach is an entirely invented MA

It is acceptable to me for a person to wear a black belt in a style that he/she has established (for example, in a personal style that he/she might decide to teach to others) Having said this, it would be egotistical and classless for such a person to then loudly flaunt his/her credentials as a 10th Dan. There is of course only a thin line between this and the aforementioned fake "master" in a fake "secret martial art".

[sensei8]

I recognise 5th Dan onwards as being awarded not for technical knowledge or ability but for what the Karateka has actually contributed to the Art. Saying that, self awarding is at the very least iffy and I would also be a little dubious.

I disagree with this, as far as Shindokan is concerned. Why? In Shindokan, all ranks from Jukyu to Hachidan are tested for. In that, the higher the rank, the more strict are the requirements, and this includes technical knowledge or ability; we must demonstrate without any doubt and/or ambiguity a marked improvement across the board. By Soke and Dai-Soke, at their discretion, ones betterment to Shindokan, might or might not be enough for our Shogo titles.

[DoctorQui]

I recognise 5th Dan onwards as being awarded not for technical knowledge or ability but for what the Karateka has actually contributed to the Art. Saying that, self awarding is at the very least iffy and I would also be a little dubious.

I disagree with this, as far as Shindokan is concerned. Why? In Shindokan, all ranks from Jukyu to Hachidan are tested for. In that, the higher the rank, the more strict are the requirements, and this includes technical knowledge or ability; we must demonstrate without any doubt and/or ambiguity a marked improvement across the board. By Soke and Dai-Soke, at their discretion, ones betterment to Shindokan, might or might not be enough for our Shogo titles.

I should have started that statement with 'Generally', as I do recognise that grading/testing systems are all different. I only speak from experience of a 3 styles.

Your point is a valid one!

OSU