Are The Hips Immovable?

[sensei8]

In this topic, I'd like for all of us, no matter ones knowledge base, to chime in ones own opinion(s). Knowing that, we've different ideas about what the hips do or don't or can't do.

To me, my hips are not an immobile framework. Why? I agree that the our body sits on a framework, the skeleton, and the hips are part of that framework. However, the difference from our frame and the frame of a car is that our frame is ALIVE...it moves in all directions.

How can one dance and do the cha-cha or shake their booty if their hips are immovable? How can I bump my wife's booty with my own unless I move my hips? How can own put their hips into any technique(s) without their hips? How can woman walk the way they walk, and the way they walk drives men crazy, without their hips?

One lacks power in the MA whenever one's a beginner...from their very first day on the floor they're being drilled and drilled to learn how to put their entire body and hips into every technique. Why? The hips are the key to generating effective power: whether it be a kick, a punch, a block, a strike, and/or a manipulation. Yes, every fiber of our body plays a key and critical part in generating power, but the hips are key.

The hips are the engine of ones power. The engine of my car sits on a frame of its own, and then the engine is mated to the transmission and then to the drive train...and if everything works...my car starts up and takes me to where I want to go. But, the engine needs three things for it to start, and these three things must be there always...Spark, Compression, and Fuel. If only one thing is missing...my engine and my transmission and my drive train are just going to sit in my driveway until it's fixed.

Well, my hips are connected to thigh bone and the thigh bone is connected to leg bone and the leg bone is connected to the foot bone [i hope I connected the bone together properly], and this skeleton is alive and my hips are moving because I move them at the exact moment I want them to move.

I snap my hips, in that, I twist violently to one side or another; back and forth if need be. I snap my hips like one would snap a towel...Ssssnnnnnaaaappppppppp!!

How can I twist my forearm if it's immovable as well? How can I twist this or that if it's immovable as well? If my skeleton is immovable, then how can I even walk, I'd be static, unable to move across the room...I'd be like a stick propped up in some corner.

Haven't your instructor stood behind you with his/her hands on your hips to help you understand the mechanics of using your hips? Or has your instructor ever wrapped a belt around your hips with him/her holding both ends of said belt while helping you to understand the mechanics of your hips and the movements of said same? If so, then the hips must be very important in generating effective power, and in that, I'm pretty sure that your instructor has told you that your hips must snap and drive your desired weapon(s) to their target(s) If not...OUCH...power ignored is power unattainable!

How can I put my hips into it if it's immovable? Because it's an expression at the best. Still that doesn't disqualify the resulting action(s). I don't know what's moving but I'm going to move it with a terrible resolve against my attacker.

Ok....that was my introduction...

Let the discussion begin!!

[Wastelander]

Being a karateka, I understand what you mean when you talk about using the hips. I think that the thing we must remember is that the hips are the indicator that we are striking with power--they don't move on their own, as JZ alluded to. The things that we do to make them move are the things we need to do to generate power 'with the hips'--our abdominal muscles contract to tuck the hips and connect their motion to our upper body, and our legs drive the hips forward so our hips can then be used as a launching platform for our upper body to turn on and generate additional power. If our hips torque into our strikes then it means our legs are driving our strikes, and if our hips are torquing it means the shoulders are probably also turning into our strikes. This is why the hips are the indicator for whether we are generating power correctly.

[JusticeZero]

I cant really put it better than Wastelander just did.

The hips do not generate movement, they are something which is moved. They are a central point around which things which move are arranged, and which is acted upon by the rest of the body.

To just say "Move the hips" still leaves unanswered how to structure and what dynamics are to be used to generate the movement. Beyond a certain point the results are simply lacking.

[Shizentai]

While translating I often encounter a related conundrum. Because of my experience with this I am inclined to believe this is more of a miscommunication than a matter of conflicting philosophies. Here in the States for some reason, when people say the word "hips" we think of the pelvis, a fixed, not-moving piece of bone. However, when I hear a Japanese instructor talking in Japanese, they use words that are referring to the hip joint, not the pelvis at all. In other words, I don't think anyone here is trying to say that the hip bone (that is, the top of your pelvis that pokes out on the side) generates much of anything. However, by looking at the socket joint of the hip itself (that is, the system of muscles tendons and ligaments that surround the meeting of the two bones), we can see that that is a network which is anything but immobile. In Japanese, they use words like "open" or "close" the hip. In English, we use words like, "turn" or "twist."

I do believe this is a limitation of our language, not of the underlying principles. They are not analogous structures. English just uses the same words for both

[sensei8]

While translating I often encounter a related conundrum. Because of my experience with this I am inclined to believe this is more of a miscommunication than a matter of conflicting philosophies. Here in the States for some reason, when people say the word "hips" we think of the pelvis, a fixed, not-moving piece of bone. However, when I hear a Japanese instructor talking in Japanese, they use words that are referring to the hip joint, not the pelvis at all. In other words, I don't think anyone here is trying to say that the hip bone (that is, the top of your pelvis that pokes out on the side) generates much of anything. However, by looking at the socket joint of the hip itself (that is, the system of muscles tendons and ligaments that surround the meeting of the two bones), we can see that that is a network which is anything but immobile. In Japanese, they use words like "open" or "close" the hip. In English, we use words like, "turn" or "twist."

I do believe this is a limitation of our language, not of the underlying principles. They are not analogous structures. English just uses the same words for both

Solid post!!

[sensei8]

For karateka's, there are 4 postures: Front Facing, Half-Front Facing, Reverse Half-Front Facing, and Side Facing. Each and every technique that's executed must start and end in one of these postures without exceptions. Postures are determined by the attitude my shoulders assume as to the relationship where my opponent is.

In that, a karateka will constantly shift into and/or out from one of said postures, however, a karateka can only be in one posture at a time while shifting/transitioning from one to another depending on which one is required to execute any said technique.

Forgive my crude drawings...

The 4 Postures: [Direction/Location of opponent is indicated by '^']

^

_____ [This is Front Facing]

^

\

\

\ [This is Half-Front Facing]

\

^

/

/

/ [This is Reverse Half-Front Facing] (Feet position unchanged)

/

^

|

| [This is Side Facing]

|

|

Remember, I did say crude drawings.

For example, If I place a pencil on a table directly in front of me, laying in a horizontal fashion, with either end of the pencil pointing to my immediate left and/or right. Then I move said pencil in a forward direction away from me by moving only the very end of said pencil, one end at a time, as though I'm walking the pencil forward, hence away from me.

For example...[sorry, another crude drawing]

^

/

\

/

\

/

\

/

\

_____

Now attach whatever technique(s) to each of the ends of the pencil above. At each movement my HIPS come alive, hence, I drive/snap, MOVE my hips with authority in and through the target(s).

What seems to happen is that MAists tend to remain in literal-tense. I can't live in literal-tense, I won't live in literal-tense, and I refuse to live in literal-tense. Training, and this includes acquiring any effective knowledge, can't be received literally.

If I say the HIPS: Move them, drive with them, snap them, etc, I'm speaking not literal, but that it's a form of expression. If I remain in literal-tense then I become a prisoner of that expression, and in that, I can't learn, discover, grow, etc, because I'm chained onto what I seem to be expounding upon instead of allowing my MA betterment to improve.

Again...my hips are movable because I move them, I will them, I command them, and in that, I don't move my hips until that exact moment/time, therefore, it is not I who moves them, they move all by themselves.

[JusticeZero]

By looking at the socket joint of the hip itself (that is, the system of muscles tendons and ligaments that surround the meeting of the two bones), we can see that that is a network which is anything but immobile. In Japanese, they use words like "open" or "close" the hip. In English, we use words like, "turn" or "twist."

By that definition, it is less than clear that we use the hips at all, at least for attacking. That seems to speak to me of the act of lifting the leg either forward to the side, whereas we try to swing the leg like a flail or nunchaku. Moving needs the legs to be moved, but so does walking, so i'm not sure that a special meaning can be derived there. Beyond "to avoid being bedridden"at least.

[bushido_man96]

The body works best as a unit. That's why in gaining strength in weight training, using full body, compound lifts are just about the best way to gain overall strength, because you work the body as a unit, and the body gets strong in several places. This relates to other body movement, as well, like punching and kicking, grappling, etc. The hips are the connection of the lower body to the upper body. So, if I want to use my whole body to generate power in a punch, then its imperative to start at the ground with the push of the foot on the ground, up through the leg, into the hip joint, through the rest of the core, and into the arm to the hand that strikes. The same goes with kicks and knees, but with just a bit of a different path that I've never really delved into.

So, if someone takes part of the equation away, then you lose out on power output. A jab with the arm is predicated (used that word twice in one day...) on arm strength only. Jab done with the body as a unit, adds more of the body's mass to the strike, making it a more efficient technique. If you take the hips away, then you won't be able to use the feet and legs to generate the power.

I can't speak to the technique of Capoeira, but Justice did mention that the way the kicking is done is different in which part of the body leads. However, in watching some performances, I do see that there is no way those techniques are done in isolation from the rest of the body, so the hip (joint) and trunk are still vital to performance. Perhaps in just a different way.

[JusticeZero]

The issue there is that the kicking leg is being used as more of an anatomical flexible weapon than anything else; the hip joint is more analogous to the chain of a nunchaku than anything else. "Without the chain, your nunchaku technique would..." ...just involve two sticks? Maybe a magical force that keeps one end of one handle from travelling far from the other... but that is just a different kind of chain! There is no sensical way to decompose that structure. At the same time, chain is chain. The nunchaku does not swing you.

As such, the focus has to move to parts that are not frameworks of bone: the spine and legs.

This also means that it is very obvious when people say "move the hips" that they tend not to be giving enough detail about "with what?" Perhaps because it has become such a contrarian position to note that the pelvis is just a structural element that has to be manipulated that it is necessary for these threads?

[shango]

In this topic, I'd like for all of us, no matter ones knowledge base, to chime in ones own opinion(s). Knowing that, we've different ideas about what the hips do or don't or can't do.

To me, my hips are not an immobile framework. Why? I agree that the our body sits on a framework, the skeleton, and the hips are part of that framework. However, the difference from our frame and the frame of a car is that our frame is ALIVE...it moves in all directions.

How can one dance and do the cha-cha or shake their booty if their hips are immovable? How can I bump my wife's booty with my own unless I move my hips? How can own put their hips into any technique(s) without their hips? How can woman walk the way they walk, and the way they walk drives men crazy, without their hips?

One lacks power in the MA whenever one's a beginner...from their very first day on the floor they're being drilled and drilled to learn how to put their entire body and hips into every technique. Why? The hips are the key to generating effective power: whether it be a kick, a punch, a block, a strike, and/or a manipulation. Yes, every fiber of our body plays a key and critical part in generating power, but the hips are key.

The hips are the engine of ones power. The engine of my car sits on a frame of its own, and then the engine is mated to the transmission and then to the drive train...and if everything works...my car starts up and takes me to where I want to go. But, the engine needs three things for it to start, and these three things must be there always...Spark, Compression, and Fuel. If only one thing is missing...my engine and my transmission and my drive train are just going to sit in my driveway until it's fixed.

Well, my hips are connected to thigh bone and the thigh bone is connected to leg bone and the leg bone is connected to the foot bone [i hope I connected the bone together properly], and this skeleton is alive and my hips are moving because I move them at the exact moment I want them to move.

I snap my hips, in that, I twist violently to one side or another; back and forth if need be. I snap my hips like one would snap a towel...Ssssnnnnnaaaappppppppp!!

How can I twist my forearm if it's immovable as well? How can I twist this or that if it's immovable as well? If my skeleton is immovable, then how can I even walk, I'd be static, unable to move across the room...I'd be like a stick propped up in some corner.

Haven't your instructor stood behind you with his/her hands on your hips to help you understand the mechanics of using your hips? Or has your instructor ever wrapped a belt around your hips with him/her holding both ends of said belt while helping you to understand the mechanics of your hips and the movements of said same? If so, then the hips must be very important in generating effective power, and in that, I'm pretty sure that your instructor has told you that your hips must snap and drive your desired weapon(s) to their target(s) If not...OUCH...power ignored is power unattainable!

How can I put my hips into it if it's immovable? Because it's an expression at the best. Still that doesn't disqualify the resulting action(s). I don't know what's moving but I'm going to move it with a terrible resolve against my attacker.

Ok....that was my introduction...

Let the discussion begin!!

This is why you'll find in traditional African martial arts the concept of the body moving as if it has no bones. There is an African martial arts evasion technique wherein one evades blows by moving the shoulders, spine, etc., in a snake like manner. Power, in the African systems, is derived from flexible joints (the hips) moved in or out of the direction of attack. Black boxers like Muhammed Ali exemplified some of this African martial concept in their boxing styles.