Without The Hips

[DoctorQui]

In Shotokan, without hips, you will be unable to execute any technique correctly or with enough power to be effective.

Trying to imagine doing zenkuts without hips!

[JusticeZero]

Ok. In Shindokan, snapping and driving hips are at the core of how we generate our power, especially for our short range techniques, and even more so when we're deep inside their "personal space".

Then what are you doing by "snapping and driving"? Hips are an immobile framework. If the hips are to do anything, it is because they are being acted on by the legs or torso. It's a bit like saying "The thing that makes this car move is the frame," and then nodding knowingly as if this were obvious and self-explanatory. The frame is immobile. It is the engine, drivetrain, and wheels that make it move!

Blindly stating the importance of the hips as self-explanatory is a bit like the Chinese martial artists who blindly accept that they are learning how to move their arms around by flexing their tendons, which are immobile connective pieces. It is either sufficiently profound as to require more explanation of what, exactly, is being pointed out in such a generally absurd statement, or it is wrong because the statement is, strictly speaking, absurd.

[sensei8]

Ok. In Shindokan, snapping and driving hips are at the core of how we generate our power, especially for our short range techniques, and even more so when we're deep inside their "personal space".

Then what are you doing by "snapping and driving"? Hips are an immobile framework. If the hips are to do anything, it is because they are being acted on by the legs or torso. It's a bit like saying "The thing that makes this car move is the frame," and then nodding knowingly as if this were obvious and self-explanatory. The frame is immobile. It is the engine, drivetrain, and wheels that make it move!

Blindly stating the importance of the hips as self-explanatory is a bit like the Chinese martial artists who blindly accept that they are learning how to move their arms around by flexing their tendons, which are immobile connective pieces. It is either sufficiently profound as to require more explanation of what, exactly, is being pointed out in such a generally absurd statement, or it is wrong because the statement is, strictly speaking, absurd.

Hips are immovable? Blindly? Absurd?

:::No emoticon for how I feel:::

[JusticeZero]

I do not mean to say that the statement that the power is in the hips lacks meaning. The statement that "internal martial artists get power from their tendons, not their muscles" has meaning, too.

What I am saying is that the statement, itself, needs to be unpacked much more than I commonly see. It needs to be deconstructed and picked apart to find the meaning in it.

tendons do not move. if someone thinks that they are learning to move by flexing their tendons, they are wrong - but they were not told that they were MOVING with the tendons, strictly speaking; they learned that their POWER was in the tendons. There is meaning - but it is not the obvious and visible answer.

The HIPS, do not move. They cannot move. The hips are one big assemblage of fused bones and joints.If the hips are "driving", then something outside of the hips are doing the driving. The statement then is a shorthand for a more complex and fundamental idea, or several such ideas.

At a certain point - the level at which we find it important to communicate these concepts, for instance, which many of us are at - we need to advance our understanding of what is happening beyond merely saying "Move with the hips. *nodsnods*".

[bushido_man96]

The way I experience it, the hips can be moved through the hip joints, which help the power transfer up from the legs and through the body. The hips can swivel on the joints that insert from the legs; that is what we mean by hip movement. I'm sure there is still some of this in Capoeira, isn't there?

[JusticeZero]

Well, yes. My concern here is just that "From the hips" is not a "moon" statement but rather a "finger" riddle. It needs to be examined and solved, not merely parroted.

[bushido_man96]

Well, I do think it makes for a good discussion; and I also agree that there tends to be a lot of innuendos in the MA world that are kind of taken for granted, and aren't always elaborated on. This is a good opportunity to do so.

[madtanker]

Without the hips as a tool, one CAN fight from a sitting position, still using the ground as the focus of the power they have. Now, saying we were locked from the hips, a lot of lateral, as well as forward techniques would be terribly restricted. Takedowns would be less effective, and kicks (except from the floor or as a stiff body) would be all but inneffective. Hip rotation also allows one to change stances at will, whether for necessity to perform the next move, or to defend one's self. The hips could be worked around, but it would be tricky to say the least... But remember, 100 years ago people lived without computers, and 200 years ago, without telephones... Humans are built to adapt, survive, and overcome obstacles. It is our adaptability that saves us from our own selves and each other in the first place...

[sensei8]

Ok. In Shindokan, snapping and driving hips are at the core of how we generate our power, especially for our short range techniques, and even more so when we're deep inside their "personal space".

Then what are you doing by "snapping and driving"? Hips are an immobile framework. If the hips are to do anything, it is because they are being acted on by the legs or torso. It's a bit like saying "The thing that makes this car move is the frame," and then nodding knowingly as if this were obvious and self-explanatory. The frame is immobile. It is the engine, drivetrain, and wheels that make it move!

Blindly stating the importance of the hips as self-explanatory is a bit like the Chinese martial artists who blindly accept that they are learning how to move their arms around by flexing their tendons, which are immobile connective pieces. It is either sufficiently profound as to require more explanation of what, exactly, is being pointed out in such a generally absurd statement, or it is wrong because the statement is, strictly speaking, absurd.

All this topic was meant to be was for one to complete my sentence and then, with a small sentence of "your" own, make a supportive statement PER the style(s) that the person trains in. I didn't want this topic to be a big nomenclature about the "hips" and the like, that could be for another topic/thread. I assume all responsibilities for not making that more clearer...it's my fault...and one of my major downfalls.

I'll start a topic called..."Are The Hips Immovable?" so that we can examine the "Hips" more closer.

[JusticeZero]

Okay, well, it comes from the realization that we really aren't "using the hips". We're doing things that sink, or we're aligning the pelvis to adjust the structure of the legs and spine, or we're using the spine and wringing to sling the legs, but we aren't doing anything that is distinctly "using the hips" - because the hips are not a thing that can be used in isolation. As such, the only thing I could find was "you're not going to be able to keep your legs attached to your torso".