Western Weapon Styles: The Longsword

[darksoul]

Sorry..i'm a Canuck

Hail fellow countryman! Where from exactly?

[bushido_man96]

What are your thoughts on the accuracy and functionality of techniques from such Japanese koryu compared to that of modern day European medieval combat practitioners who, in the most part, have had to rely on research to establish their reason d’être?

Its quite difficult to say, to be honest. I don't know enough about the Koryu arts to make a solid judgement. I do study an eastern sword art, buts its Haedong Gumdo, which was invented in the 80's and is a synthesis of japanese styles, Gicheon il su kung fu and theatrical sword fighting so its not entirely relevant.

If you look at the grappling, its very similar. The dagger work is similar too. All The techniques tend to emphasize very direct gross motor actions. There isn't anything like the japanese notion of Aiki and not much emphasis on pressure points or small joint manipulation, just a fist to the face and a dagger in the neck. Western swordwork has some very unique features which are made possible by the shape of the weapon which I haven't seen in Japanese swordsmanship , but as to whether they are more or less practical I do not know. There were philosophical, even internal aspects to some of the arts, but these aspects do not resemble the philosophical aspects of eastern arts at all.

The biggest issues we face are context. We see these pictures, we read the words but we are not entirely sure what it is we are seeing, especially with sword. The grappling and dagger are fairly easy, since we have a modern basis of comparison. Initially there was great resistance to applying and using Kenjutsu and other living lineages, but that resistance is dying and with more eastern sword arts people coming in we may gain perspectives to fill in the gaps.

In these manuscripts the language is sometimes cryptic. The art may be crude or missing. The context is uncertain. One of the problems is that these manuscripts were usually written as reference books for people who already knew how to fight. There is much that the authors assumed the reader would already know, so they didn't write it down. Trying to figure these things out takes alot of time, study and trial and error. Disputes over interpretations have caused heated arguments and even schisms in important organisations. Another problems is the distinct possibility of frauds..how many of these manuscripts were written by guys who knew what they were talking about, and how many were written by frauds? Koryu arts don't need to worry about this..they have a living lineage, a teacher and full syllabus with a defined interpretation of the art

There are strong points though..we can see elements of context that I think may be lost in oral transmissions. We have the literal words of the fighting men themselves telling us what to do, what works and when. For instance there are certain dagger defense techniques and sword guard positions that work much better in armour than out of armour and the authors tell you this. Similar techniques may have been preserved in Koryu, but without the words of the old masters, their original intent may be lost. There is also an element of mutation that is bound to occur in any oral transmission. Any art that is not being used in its original function will mutate to suit its new function. Since no form of transmission is perfect, I suspect that there has been mutation in certain elements of Koryu that no one may realise.

If I could throw in a line or two here, they won't be as in depth as Zoodle's response, but I'll give a whirl...

In response to the bold type, I would admit that the WMA practitioners started out behind the 8-ball because of the lack of a continual transmission. As technology changed, the WMAists seemed more apt to adjust with the times, moving on to firearms and the like, and relying less on cold steel. If you look at the history of Boxing and Fencing, you see how they went from more combat related arts to sporting arts for the gentlemen to compete in. As sword play wasn't needed, its instructors went away.

So, the WMA practitioners must use more of a trial and error form of learning to figure out what is being referenced in the manuals, and by doing some active research, through sparring, they begin to piece back together these old styles. Its a long road to hoe, but very rewarding in the end.

I think many see this as not being a very accurate way of learning what the old masters taught, but when you think about weapons fighting of the time, the armor that was worn, the make of the weapons, and what is described in the manuals, and using common sense in combative movements, it can be a very fun and enlightening way to learn those styles.

[bushido_man96]

I've seen the HEMA website, and it seems like lots of good stuff is going on there. I'm curious as to whether or not there have been any recent works published worth picking up? I have several translated Fectbuchs, but haven't picked up anything new for a few years.

Thanks for joining up and sharing all this with us. I look forward to having more converstations with you on this subject. Its been a while since I've reviewed anything, and since I have no group around to study with, aside from some SCA guys I used to fight with, all I can really do is read and learn.

Robert Charette just released a very nice book on Fiore Dei Liberi's manuscript Flos Duelletorum. If you purchase Tom Leoni's translation of the Getty Manuscript, and use Charette's book as study guide you'll have an excellent combination. Even if swords aren't your thing, Fiore's simple, logical and efficient grappling and dagger defense (plus variants on how to apply the defenses using every day objects like batons and belts) is worth taking a look at. His entire grappling system is broken down into 4 basic positions, and the rest of his fighting system extrapolates from these four positions.

The great thing about Dei Liberi is that his system is a complete, integrated and internally self consistant system of fighting with weapons that is laid out in a logical and reasonably clear manner.

Leoni's translation: http://www.lulu.com/shop/tom-leoni/fiore-de-liberis-fior-di-battaglia/paperback/product-5364635.html

Charrette's Book

http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/armizare.aspx

Very cool. I will check into these. Thank you!