10 year old Black Belts!

[Dobbersky]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

Is all that a requirement for a black belt? I think this whole question depends on your understanding of what a black belt should be. A black belt is about one's own personal knowledge and ability in karate, not about one's teaching ability. I'm a 4th kyu and could probably teach a new student better than half the black belts in my school simply because I've got a teaching degree and teaching experience. A black belt doesn't have to be a good teacher.

The way it was explained to me was that a black belt means you've mastered the basics and are ready for more advanced study. I think a kid could easily meet that requirement. It's when people start making the black belt mean more than it does-- that they're teachers or in charge or the strongest/fastest/best-- that people start fighting over this.

Excellent response, and totally agree with your second point that's why within the NGB I'm a member of we have Instructor Qualificatons similar to an NVQ. Also, with respect having a teaching degree doesn't automatically make you able to teach Martial Arts, you're a 4th Kyu, so with respect you still have so much to learn about your own style, you have a minimum of 2 years before you are even close to being invited to grade for Shodan. Its similar to me, I also have a teaching qualification via the armed forces, teaching Doctors how to give first aid as I've had a bit if experience in first aid.

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

I think the answer on all counts would be "NO"

But a 20 year old brown belt could open a school, because he is old enough to open a business of his own. But could this brown belt grade his own students? So now we aren't even talking about the belt, just age.

Aside from that, I know some styles don't grant instructor status until 2nd or 3rd dan are reached. My style doesn't grant instructor status until 3rd dan, at age 18. And as sensei8 and others have said, not all black belts can teach.

Not too sure if its accepted where you're from but in the UK, Black belt or equivalent is the minimum grade you can open a Dojo. I've known many 1st, 2nd ad 3rd Dans who's teachin skills surpass those of higher grades, I knew a guy who'd remained 1st Dan for 17 years before grading for 2nd. so its also about time in grade too

With full respect, Can we put a poll on this and put origin of style they practice. As I don't see those studying Japanese arts freely giving full blackbelts to under 16's.

So are you saying its only us Korean stylists that are advocating this? I guess it could be. I'm not ashamed of that, though. I know my school does a good job of producing good Martial Artists, and I know that the kids we promote to black belt are very comparable to other kids of that age and skill level; we just aren't afraid to say that they have black belt skills as kids.

I was trying to see if it was a cultural issue, as if it is acceptable in the Korean arts as a common acceptable standard or whether it was across the board and was common practice across all the arts regardless of Origin.

The way it was explained to me was that a black belt means you've mastered the basics and are ready for more advanced study. I think a kid could easily meet that requirement. It's when people start making the black belt mean more than it does-- that they're teachers or in charge or the strongest/fastest/best-- that people start fighting over this.

This is the most common interpretation I hear of the black belt rank. Its "just the beginning." If that's the case, then why not let a kid who has demonstrated their ability to understand the curriculum make it to this phase?

I personally feel that Junior Dan grades totally demonstrate their abilities within their specific curriculum. I'm not too sure if I mentioned this before, I watched a Shotokan Class and the Instructor had Teenage Black belts, not too sure if full or junior grade, but she was allowed to instruct a small section of beginners through their basics and forms. she had no control and spent most of her time wit the group chatting with one or two of them and nothing on that time was accomplished. one of my students 15 going for Junior 1st Dan is also doing a Physical Education Qualification and I am completely confident in his abilities. looking forward to finally giving him Adult blackbelt and Junior Second Dan in 2 years

Here's another point of view I have. You only see this in the Eastern styles. My boy Wrestles, and by the time he's 16, he'll probably have a pretty good grasp of most of the system, given he sticks with it and works hard. I know this will likely bring on a "sport vs art" argument, but at the same rate, kids who Wrestle won't have to worry nearly as much about something such as this.

Wrestling like Boxing doesn't have any grades. and yeah it is a Sport versus art. Comparing it to Judo or Yudo (the Korean version) I have covered this already, they do not give black belts to under 16's they have Mon grades prior to Kyu grades if the student is younger than the minimum requirement for adult grading system.

Excellent thread and so happy we are all being respectful with each other, hence why I enjoy this forum so much

[Lupin1]

Is all that a requirement for a black belt? I think this whole question depends on your understanding of what a black belt should be. A black belt is about one's own personal knowledge and ability in karate, not about one's teaching ability. I'm a 4th kyu and could probably teach a new student better than half the black belts in my school simply because I've got a teaching degree and teaching experience. A black belt doesn't have to be a good teacher.

Excellent response, and totally agree with your second point that's why within the NGB I'm a member of we have Instructor Qualificatons similar to an NVQ. Also, with respect having a teaching degree doesn't automatically make you able to teach Martial Arts, you're a 4th Kyu, so with respect you still have so much to learn about your own style, you have a minimum of 2 years before you are even close to being invited to grade for Shodan. Its similar to me, I also have a teaching qualification via the armed forces, teaching Doctors how to give first aid as I've had a bit if experience in first aid.

Well I know I couldn't bring anyone up very high, but if I were to be given a group of brand new students (especially children) I bet I could bring them through the white belt curriculum faster, more easily, and with higher knowledge retention than most of the black belts in the school who have no idea how to explain and connect new concepts, pinpoint and correct errors, and in some cases even interact with students. I know some of the black belts who have tried teaching me things just seemed awkward and confused. They didn't know how to word things, didn't demonstrate, spent way too long on one thing to the detriment of other, more important things, talked to me like I was two or else like I was already a black belt myself and should understand all these terms and concepts I'd never heard before, etc. Teaching ability isn't something that just naturally comes with having done something for a long time. It's a skill and a talent unto itself.

[bushido_man96]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

I think the answer on all counts would be "NO"

But a 20 year old brown belt could open a school, because he is old enough to open a business of his own. But could this brown belt grade his own students? So now we aren't even talking about the belt, just age.

Aside from that, I know some styles don't grant instructor status until 2nd or 3rd dan are reached. My style doesn't grant instructor status until 3rd dan, at age 18. And as sensei8 and others have said, not all black belts can teach.

Not too sure if its accepted where you're from but in the UK, Black belt or equivalent is the minimum grade you can open a Dojo. I've known many 1st, 2nd ad 3rd Dans who's teachin skills surpass those of higher grades, I knew a guy who'd remained 1st Dan for 17 years before grading for 2nd. so its also about time in grade too

Is that requirement set forth by the UK government for MA business requirements, or is it in regards to the NGBs of the MAs there. Is it universal? Does GKR have instructors at level below black belt? I'm not citing them as the model to follow, but just trying to establish where the rule comes from you stated.

I'm not too sure if I mentioned this before, I watched a Shotokan Class and the Instructor had Teenage Black belts, not too sure if full or junior grade, but she was allowed to instruct a small section of beginners through their basics and forms. she had no control and spent most of her time wit the group chatting with one or two of them and nothing on that time was accomplished.

As mentioned before, the case for promoting any student, regardless of the age in question, to black belt should be done on a student by student, case by case basis. Not all students are alike, and not all will advance at the same rate. But just because one 10 year old doesn't demonstrate the maturity of knowledge to advance to black belt rank doesn't mean all 10 year olds should be held to the same standard.

As far as kids, like a 10 year old, teaching adults, isn't something I have advocated here. Our society, any society, just won't tolerate kids being in charge of the adults in any situation. So, I would avoid putting black belt kids in charge of any section of an adult class. But, that doesn't change how I feel about ranking a kid of that age in regards to their knowledge of the curriculum and grasp of the style.

Now, I would feel comfortable putting a black belt kid in a cooperative teaching situation with other kids. Allowing the child black belt to assist in class drills, be an example for others to follow along, etc, are all good things to help bring a new black belt along in the teaching process. I would feel it would be my job to lead the class, as responsibility to my school and students, but would absolutely allow assistance from 10 year old black belt in a kids class.

As far as having control of a class goes, that's hard for any new teacher in any new capacity. We are all aware of the substitute teacher syndrome, I think. When I first started teaching, all my buddies still wanted to be buddies, and pal around during teaching time. Its a hump everyone has to get over, not just kids. But, kids can be more prone to peer pressure, and it can be tougher for them, in any capacity. So, its important as the head instructor for me to help foster that transition, for any new black belt helping to teach.

Also, with respect having a teaching degree doesn't automatically make you able to teach Martial Arts...

Neither does earning a black belt automatically make one a teacher of Martial Arts. Like anything, its a skill to be practiced, learned, and honed.

Excellent thread and so happy we are all being respectful with each other, hence why I enjoy this forum so much

That's what makes us awesome!

Edited October 24, 2012 by bushido_man96

[DWx]

Not too sure if its accepted where you're from but in the UK, Black belt or equivalent is the minimum grade you can open a Dojo. I've known many 1st, 2nd ad 3rd Dans who's teachin skills surpass those of higher grades, I knew a guy who'd remained 1st Dan for 17 years before grading for 2nd. so its also about time in grade too

Is that requirement set forth by the UK government for MA business requirements, or is it in regards to the NGBs of the MAs there. Is it universal? Does GKR have instructors at level below black belt? I'm not citing them as the model to follow, but just trying to establish where the rule comes from you stated.

I'm unsure of this too. Perhaps it's a requirement of the org you belong to Dobbersky? Blackbelts are not equal across styles and there's no standardization there for the govn't or UKSport to try to regulate who opens a school based on this. TBH wouldn't think they'd care either. Maybe it's a requirement from wherever you get your insurance from? I know I've heard of blue belt run BJJ schools and in my local area there used to be a TKD school run by a red belt (albeit supervised by his own instructor).

[bushido_man96]

The BJJ blue belt deal came to my mind, as well. I knew it was ok for non-black belt BJJers to open a school, but didn't know how many BJJ schools were in the UK.

[Dobbersky]

Not too sure if its accepted where you're from but in the UK, Black belt or equivalent is the minimum grade you can open a Dojo. I've known many 1st, 2nd ad 3rd Dans who's teachin skills surpass those of higher grades, I knew a guy who'd remained 1st Dan for 17 years before grading for 2nd. so its also about time in grade too

Is that requirement set forth by the UK government for MA business requirements, or is it in regards to the NGBs of the MAs there. Is it universal? Does GKR have instructors at level below black belt? I'm not citing them as the model to follow, but just trying to establish where the rule comes from you stated.

I'm unsure of this too. Perhaps it's a requirement of the org you belong to Dobbersky? Blackbelts are not equal across styles and there's no standardization there for the govn't or UKSport to try to regulate who opens a school based on this. TBH wouldn't think they'd care either. Maybe it's a requirement from wherever you get your insurance from? I know I've heard of blue belt run BJJ schools and in my local area there used to be a TKD school run by a red belt (albeit supervised by his own instructor).

Every NGB in the UK I have spoken to specifies 1st Dan Black belt to open a club. I got a 1st Kyu going for 1st Dan who's chomping at the bit to open his own club near where he lives and we've had to wait for him to be 1st Dan for it to be authorised.

As you stated with the Red Belt, I'm sure if you look into it, his Instructor is down as being the mian instructor.

regards GKR I'm think my response my contravene with the T's & C's of this forum. but its registered with NAKMAS as far as I'm aware, I could be wrong. They do state that one has to be a 1st Dan to open a club with them.

The BJJ blue belt deal came to my mind, as well. I knew it was ok for non-black belt BJJers to open a school, but didn't know how many BJJ schools were in the UK.

Yeap you have me over a barrel with this one, I can't comment on this as I have no knowledge at all of the terms and conditions regards BJJ grade levels

[Dobbersky]

Is all that a requirement for a black belt? I think this whole question depends on your understanding of what a black belt should be. A black belt is about one's own personal knowledge and ability in karate, not about one's teaching ability. I'm a 4th kyu and could probably teach a new student better than half the black belts in my school simply because I've got a teaching degree and teaching experience. A black belt doesn't have to be a good teacher.

Excellent response, and totally agree with your second point that's why within the NGB I'm a member of we have Instructor Qualificatons similar to an NVQ. Also, with respect having a teaching degree doesn't automatically make you able to teach Martial Arts, you're a 4th Kyu, so with respect you still have so much to learn about your own style, you have a minimum of 2 years before you are even close to being invited to grade for Shodan. Its similar to me, I also have a teaching qualification via the armed forces, teaching Doctors how to give first aid as I've had a bit if experience in first aid.

Well I know I couldn't bring anyone up very high, but if I were to be given a group of brand new students (especially children) I bet I could bring them through the white belt curriculum faster, more easily, and with higher knowledge retention than most of the black belts in the school who have no idea how to explain and connect new concepts, pinpoint and correct errors, and in some cases even interact with students. I know some of the black belts who have tried teaching me things just seemed awkward and confused. They didn't know how to word things, didn't demonstrate, spent way too long on one thing to the detriment of other, more important things, talked to me like I was two or else like I was already a black belt myself and should understand all these terms and concepts I'd never heard before, etc. Teaching ability isn't something that just naturally comes with having done something for a long time. It's a skill and a talent unto itself.

1st point - if you have no confidence with your instructors at your chosen style - Why train there?

IsshinRyu is a Truly awesome style one of the original Okinawan Ryu that has some excellent strong lineage and Bunkai and Shu Ha Ri is part of its ethics & Ethos.

Aikido - describe by Kano Sensei as perfect Judo, again this is an awesome style which takes more mental and spiritual training than physical

Grading is NOT bums on seats, its about time served, one must encompass what Shu Ha Ri is all about for it to become part of you not just a Japanese Dance where yeah one can perform the techniques, do the Kata and maybe win competitons with it but is it all worth it if one doesn't "understand" what it is all about, the what's why's when's where's and how's that comes only with experience and TIME. I suggest you raise these issues with your senior instructor that you could do a better job than his/her black belts I sure he will take on board what you say, OSU

[darksoul]

1st point - if you have no confidence with your instructors at your chosen style - Why train there?

IsshinRyu is a Truly awesome style one of the original Okinawan Ryu that has some excellent strong lineage and Bunkai and Shu Ha Ri is part of its ethics & Ethos.

Aikido - describe by Kano Sensei as perfect Judo, again this is an awesome style which takes more mental and spiritual training than physical

Grading is NOT bums on seats, its about time served, one must encompass what Shu Ha Ri is all about for it to become part of you not just a Japanese Dance where yeah one can perform the techniques, do the Kata and maybe win competitons with it but is it all worth it if one doesn't "understand" what it is all about, the what's why's when's where's and how's that comes only with experience and TIME. I suggest you raise these issues with your senior instructor that you could do a better job than his/her black belts I sure he will take on board what you say, OSU

That's exactly went through my mind when I read that as well.

My old master got me teaching at 2nd kyu so I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed, especially if you can prove your teaching skills.

[DWx]

Not too sure if its accepted where you're from but in the UK, Black belt or equivalent is the minimum grade you can open a Dojo. I've known many 1st, 2nd ad 3rd Dans who's teachin skills surpass those of higher grades, I knew a guy who'd remained 1st Dan for 17 years before grading for 2nd. so its also about time in grade too

Is that requirement set forth by the UK government for MA business requirements, or is it in regards to the NGBs of the MAs there. Is it universal? Does GKR have instructors at level below black belt? I'm not citing them as the model to follow, but just trying to establish where the rule comes from you stated.

I'm unsure of this too. Perhaps it's a requirement of the org you belong to Dobbersky? Blackbelts are not equal across styles and there's no standardization there for the govn't or UKSport to try to regulate who opens a school based on this. TBH wouldn't think they'd care either. Maybe it's a requirement from wherever you get your insurance from? I know I've heard of blue belt run BJJ schools and in my local area there used to be a TKD school run by a red belt (albeit supervised by his own instructor).

Every NGB in the UK I have spoken to specifies 1st Dan Black belt to open a club. I got a 1st Kyu going for 1st Dan who's chomping at the bit to open his own club near where he lives and we've had to wait for him to be 1st Dan for it to be authorised.

As you stated with the Red Belt, I'm sure if you look into it, his Instructor is down as being the mian instructor.

regards GKR I'm think my response my contravene with the T's & C's of this forum. but its registered with NAKMAS as far as I'm aware, I could be wrong. They do state that one has to be a 1st Dan to open a club with them.

The BJJ blue belt deal came to my mind, as well. I knew it was ok for non-black belt BJJers to open a school, but didn't know how many BJJ schools were in the UK.

Yeap you have me over a barrel with this one, I can't comment on this as I have no knowledge at all of the terms and conditions regards BJJ grade levels

I agree most NGBs probably would say blackbelt level at least because that's most likely what the insurance companies would want because they'd think represents a good standard. But there's nothing stopping anyone just going out and starting up a school if they can get insurance to cover them. In any case, some NGB's won't even let you teach at blackbelt level unless you do specific instructor training to learn how to teach. At least that is how TKD is regulated in the UK. You can't get a BTC license unless you do all the appropriate courses. It's less about the actual belt and more to do with whether you understand how to teach.

[bushido_man96]

So I think we're clear that the main drawback on running a school is on age to open a business, and the other drawback is insurance/liability. And these are both important considerations, too.

But, what's wrong with a 10 year old earning a black belt, then perhaps grading to 2nd dan in 2 and half years (time requirement in my style), being a 2nd dan by lets say close to 13 years old, then 3.5 years down the road, at close to 16, being close to eligible to 3rd dan. So, by the time you've got a student getting of age to open a school at age 18, they've got a bit more rank, more experience, and have matured more, and you'll have a very competent 2nd or 3rd dan ready to teach, and likely be able to promote their own students through to 1st dan.

This isn't the perfect scenario, and it isn't the only scenario, and as I mentioned earlier, this scenario won't apply to every student, as every student is promoted on a case by case basis.

I just don't see why one has to get old before ever becoming a master.