10 year old Black Belts!

[bushido_man96]

I agree with DWx's case by case analysis of the rank. There is nothing set in stone that only adults can earn black belt ranks. Its been common practice for a long time, and when someone finally said kids can be black belts, too, it just hasn't come off well for everyone.

We see all kinds of amputees and other physically and metally handicapped individuals earn black belts. I don't see why kids can't.

[bushido_man96]

I posted an article in this thread that should be of interest to this thread as well: 12 year old Oklahoma girl shoots home intruder

This girl did a very good job of defending herself in a lethal threat situation. I don't see any reason why a girl like this couldn't earn a full black belt rank in the Martial Arts.

I also think that we as Martial Arts instructors need to really think about how we address the "lethality" of the Martial Arts we teach. A lot of instructors think because they are teaching Martial Arts, and they teach all these moves that are considered "lethal," that they are teaching people how to kill. In actuality, they are not. Teaching someone how to kill is a whole other level of training, one taken on by military or law enforcement training. Along with the techniques, a type of mind set has to be trained for it, as well. A lot of us aren't trying to train killers. We want to train others to defend themselves. And I'm not saying we aren't teaching our students how to use lethal force levels if necessary.

I guess what I'm getting at is that in my teaching experiences, I don't say things like "now if you do this, you can kill them" very much in class. I'm curious as to how often others say it or demonstrate it.

[Dobbersky]

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We see all kinds of amputees and other physically and mentally handicapped individuals earn black belts. I don't see why kids can't.

Bushido_man, please don't let me think You're putting disabled people in the same bracket as children. They may be disabled but they are far from being "child-like".

Question, You're in a group of people, mixed ages and abilities, everyone needs to get out of the situation for survival as it dangerous for everyone. So You're telling me everyone in the group is going to stand to attention etc and listen to the 10 year old boy? Or listen to the amputee who's an ex-marine etc.

[DWx]

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We see all kinds of amputees and other physically and mentally handicapped individuals earn black belts. I don't see why kids can't.

Bushido_man, please don't let me think You're putting disabled people in the same bracket as children. They may be disabled but they are far from being "child-like".

Question, You're in a group of people, mixed ages and abilities, everyone needs to get out of the situation for survival as it dangerous for everyone. So You're telling me everyone in the group is going to stand to attention etc and listen to the 10 year old boy? Or listen to the amputee who's an ex-marine etc.

I don't think Brian is saying that the disabled or handicapped are like children, more along the lines of any reason that's been given for children not to have a blackbelt can be considered a reason for those people not to have one too if we wanted to discriminate that way. Reasons like children aren't physically strong enough, children aren't able to examine a situation and act like a mature adult would, could be applied to some people. And even if you don't want to think about it like this, again, what do you say to particularly small adult females or immature adults?

WRT your scenario, I would if the child was directing everyone appropriately. Take the child in the article bushido_man96 posted, she acted with a clear enough head and dealt with the situation. Of course if there were an ex-marine there at the same time offering better advice I might follow that instead but then I equate that with like picking the more experienced of two blackbelts.

Perhaps this conversation stems from the fact that nowadays children are treated more child-like than they have been in the past? Wasn't it Musashi who first fought and killed a samurai aged 13? Would that skill and apparent maturity level not warrant a blackbelt? Or you could even look at the 1000's of soldiers who lied about their ages when enlisting for the military during WWI and WWII. A lot of the time they'd obviously demonstrated the maturity and developed the skills and fooled everyone around them. Qualities of a blackbelt?

[bushido_man96]

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We see all kinds of amputees and other physically and mentally handicapped individuals earn black belts. I don't see why kids can't.

Bushido_man, please don't let me think You're putting disabled people in the same bracket as children. They may be disabled but they are far from being "child-like".

I'm not bracketing anybody. I'm just pointing out what I think are inconsistencies in how some award black belts.

Question, You're in a group of people, mixed ages and abilities, everyone needs to get out of the situation for survival as it dangerous for everyone. So You're telling me everyone in the group is going to stand to attention etc and listen to the 10 year old boy? Or listen to the amputee who's an ex-marine etc.

I didn't say anything of the sort. Are you saying all of your black belts could stand up and take control of this very vague situation you have just laid out? Have all of your black belts had survival training? If so, what does this entail, and how does it work into the curriculum for testings? Are all ex-military automatically eligible for black belt status when they sign up for a class, but the 12 year old girl in this article doesn't even get considered?

[bushido_man96]

..........

We see all kinds of amputees and other physically and mentally handicapped individuals earn black belts. I don't see why kids can't.

Bushido_man, please don't let me think You're putting disabled people in the same bracket as children. They may be disabled but they are far from being "child-like".

Question, You're in a group of people, mixed ages and abilities, everyone needs to get out of the situation for survival as it dangerous for everyone. So You're telling me everyone in the group is going to stand to attention etc and listen to the 10 year old boy? Or listen to the amputee who's an ex-marine etc.

I don't think Brian is saying that the disabled or handicapped are like children, more along the lines of any reason that's been given for children not to have a blackbelt can be considered a reason for those people not to have one too if we wanted to discriminate that way. Reasons like children aren't physically strong enough, children aren't able to examine a situation and act like a mature adult would, could be applied to some people. And even if you don't want to think about it like this, again, what do you say to particularly small adult females or immature adults?

Thank you, DWx. This was exactly the point I was making.

[Dobbersky]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

I think the answer on all counts would be "NO"

With full respect, Can we put a poll on this and put origin of style they practice. As I don't see those studying Japanese arts freely giving full blackbelts to under 16's.

[Lupin1]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

Is all that a requirement for a black belt? I think this whole question depends on your understanding of what a black belt should be. A black belt is about one's own personal knowledge and ability in karate, not about one's teaching ability. I'm a 4th kyu and could probably teach a new student better than half the black belts in my school simply because I've got a teaching degree and teaching experience. A black belt doesn't have to be a good teacher.

The way it was explained to me was that a black belt means you've mastered the basics and are ready for more advanced study. I think a kid could easily meet that requirement. It's when people start making the black belt mean more than it does-- that they're teachers or in charge or the strongest/fastest/best-- that people start fighting over this.

[DWx]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

Is all that a requirement for a black belt? I think this whole question depends on your understanding of what a black belt should be. A black belt is about one's own personal knowledge and ability in karate, not about one's teaching ability. I'm a 4th kyu and could probably teach a new student better than half the black belts in my school simply because I've got a teaching degree and teaching experience. A black belt doesn't have to be a good teacher.

The way it was explained to me was that a black belt means you've mastered the basics and are ready for more advanced study. I think a kid could easily meet that requirement. It's when people start making the black belt mean more than it does-- that they're teachers or in charge or the strongest/fastest/best-- that people start fighting over this.

Great post. Not everyone can teach and not everyone should teach. Some of the best fighters out there can be really sucky when it comes to trying to pass on their knowledge. But that doesn't lessen their ability or their knowledge.

[bushido_man96]

Lets put it another way. Can a 10 year old open their own Dojo, grade their own students or even be allowed on a Dan grading panel, train a student to compete in local, national & international competition?

I think the answer on all counts would be "NO"

But a 20 year old brown belt could open a school, because he is old enough to open a business of his own. But could this brown belt grade his own students? So now we aren't even talking about the belt, just age.

Aside from that, I know some styles don't grant instructor status until 2nd or 3rd dan are reached. My style doesn't grant instructor status until 3rd dan, at age 18. And as sensei8 and others have said, not all black belts can teach.

With full respect, Can we put a poll on this and put origin of style they practice. As I don't see those studying Japanese arts freely giving full blackbelts to under 16's.

So are you saying its only us Korean stylists that are advocating this? I guess it could be. I'm not ashamed of that, though. I know my school does a good job of producing good Martial Artists, and I know that the kids we promote to black belt are very comparable to other kids of that age and skill level; we just aren't afraid to say that they have black belt skills as kids.

The way it was explained to me was that a black belt means you've mastered the basics and are ready for more advanced study. I think a kid could easily meet that requirement. It's when people start making the black belt mean more than it does-- that they're teachers or in charge or the strongest/fastest/best-- that people start fighting over this.

This is the most common interpretation I hear of the black belt rank. Its "just the beginning." If that's the case, then why not let a kid who has demonstrated their ability to understand the curriculum make it to this phase?

Here's another point of view I have. You only see this in the Eastern styles. My boy Wrestles, and by the time he's 16, he'll probably have a pretty good grasp of most of the system, given he sticks with it and works hard. I know this will likely bring on a "sport vs art" argument, but at the same rate, kids who Wrestle won't have to worry nearly as much about something such as this.