10 year old Black Belts!

[DoctorQui]

Shindokan is no McDojo, however, we utilize the JBB. I was a JBB for just over 5 years, and in that, I couldn't rank up, per our By-Laws. I earned my Shodan when I was 18 years old...waited 16 months for my Nidan...then waited another 16 months for my Sandan.

Waiting in the JBB ranks for just over 5 years allowed me to learn requirements for Shodan thru Sandan.

I think that's great that you got to continue learning requirements through the rank of sandan.

My question is, what the difference between knowing those requirements as a junior, and knowing them when you came of age to hold the rank? To me, it seems a formality of age, and not of passing on knowledge.

Unless I'm missing something that I would understand better being a Shindokan stylist, not knowing the intricacies of what you learned when you did.

I'm with Brian on this one. No offence meant and I know you have to adhere to the By-Laws of your Hombu, but when you get down to it, what is the difference between the JBB rank and a normal BB rank? If you've learnt all the requirements and can perform to the standard expected, what is the difference really?

Often times I sometimes think that the JBB rank is a way of adults making themselves feel better that a kid got the same rank as they did.

I agree that kids are far better than adults at learning and retaining information but for me, a junior simply cannot be a full Dan grade until they reach a certain maturity of mind and body.

At a previous club there was a junior black (9) who was always pulling rank on you because he was a black belt and there were adult who were not, he would refuse to spar with anyone less than black belt and when made to spar with me, at that time a 5th Kyu I made him cry not by hurting him but by not 'letting' him hit me, ie blocking all of his technique because he simply didn't have the speed or power to compete with an adult.

At my new club, to be able to take Dan, you must perform full contact kumite (no pads) with a Dan grade until you land a punch or kick on target. This can take up to 3 mins. A child would, imo, simply not be able to do this and therefore not fulfill the requirements of the grading.

[DWx]

I agree that kids are far better than adults at learning and retaining information but for me, a junior simply cannot be a full Dan grade until they reach a certain maturity of mind and body.

At a previous club there was a junior black (9) who was always pulling rank on you because he was a black belt and there were adult who were not, he would refuse to spar with anyone less than black belt and when made to spar with me, at that time a 5th Kyu I made him cry not by hurting him but by not 'letting' him hit me, ie blocking all of his technique because he simply didn't have the speed or power to compete with an adult.

At my new club, to be able to take Dan, you must perform full contact kumite (no pads) with a Dan grade until you land a punch or kick on target. This can take up to 3 mins. A child would, imo, simply not be able to do this and therefore not fulfill the requirements of the grading.

But that is not a problem with the JBB rank as such, that is a problem with the school for not building in a maturity requirement into the rank or at least taking how the person acts into account. Being a BB is about skill but also you are acting as an ambassador for your school and style. Few people will look at colour belts but will definitely notice how the blackbelts act and how they conduct themselves.

Doesn't matter what the age is when getting the rank because people develop maturity at different rates, I've known 12 year olds who have acted more mature that 16 or even 17 year olds. Heck even some adults are very immature. If the 9 year old acted like that he shouldn't have been granted rank in the first place or if he developed this once in rank, the school should have done something about it. If he didn't have the speed or power appropriate to the rank he shouldn't have been graded to that rank either. It sounds like the JBB has reduced requirements so why not hold him at 1st kyu instead of making him pay for another grading? (McDojo???)

With regards to your final paragraph, that's great and I think that's how it should be. But I wouldn't say that a child wouldn't be able to do it. Not every child will but you will get some who can. Especially those who have effectively lived in the dojo from a young age. And if a child can't, you could argue that neither can some smaller women.

[bushido_man96]

I agree that kids are far better than adults at learning and retaining information but for me, a junior simply cannot be a full Dan grade until they reach a certain maturity of mind and body.

At a previous club there was a junior black (9) who was always pulling rank on you because he was a black belt and there were adult who were not, he would refuse to spar with anyone less than black belt and when made to spar with me, at that time a 5th Kyu I made him cry not by hurting him but by not 'letting' him hit me, ie blocking all of his technique because he simply didn't have the speed or power to compete with an adult.

At my new club, to be able to take Dan, you must perform full contact kumite (no pads) with a Dan grade until you land a punch or kick on target. This can take up to 3 mins. A child would, imo, simply not be able to do this and therefore not fulfill the requirements of the grading.

But that is not a problem with the JBB rank as such, that is a problem with the school for not building in a maturity requirement into the rank or at least taking how the person acts into account. Being a BB is about skill but also you are acting as an ambassador for your school and style. Few people will look at colour belts but will definitely notice how the blackbelts act and how they conduct themselves.

Doesn't matter what the age is when getting the rank because people develop maturity at different rates, I've known 12 year olds who have acted more mature that 16 or even 17 year olds. Heck even some adults are very immature. If the 9 year old acted like that he shouldn't have been granted rank in the first place or if he developed this once in rank, the school should have done something about it. If he didn't have the speed or power appropriate to the rank he shouldn't have been graded to that rank either. It sounds like the JBB has reduced requirements so why not hold him at 1st kyu instead of making him pay for another grading? (McDojo???)

With regards to your final paragraph, that's great and I think that's how it should be. But I wouldn't say that a child wouldn't be able to do it. Not every child will but you will get some who can. Especially those who have effectively lived in the dojo from a young age. And if a child can't, you could argue that neither can some smaller women.

All very good points, DWx. The point in bold is especially one to consider.

At a previous club there was a junior black (9) who was always pulling rank on you because he was a black belt and there were adult who were not, he would refuse to spar with anyone less than black belt and when made to spar with me, at that time a 5th Kyu I made him cry not by hurting him but by not 'letting' him hit me, ie blocking all of his technique because he simply didn't have the speed or power to compete with an adult.

I agree with DWx that this is a fault of the instructor, and not to be the sole determining factor for all children in regards to black belt ranks. That is another issue when it comes to passing anyone for any grading at any age; each should be reviewed on an individual basis, and not as an entire group. If I saw a black belt of any age acting that way, I would pull them aside and discuss etiquette and common sense with them.

[Rateh]

I've always hated the "full contact against an adult" as a reason for not having child black belts. As an adult woman, coming in at just under 5'3" I am smaller than most middle schoolers today. I would not do well in a full contact match against an average sized adult male.

I do think that there should be junior black belts, for students under the age of 15. 15 is generally the age when your brain has fully developed into an adult brain, at that point what they are lacking is simply life experience, and you can't put an age on that.

[Dobbersky]

I consider having a blackbelt the same as having a driving licence. In the UK its 17 before a person can drive, 16 in some states in the USA.

A car is a lethal weapon, the same as martial arts are lethal too. You cannot trust a pre-16 year old to grasp the what, where, when, why and why not, should not, would not etc. Regardless of size or gender.

No one has said to me, its ok to teach a neck wrench and how it would work etc and when where and why etc on a pre-16 year old. It's all down to maturity. If the candidate is mature enough and can act as a Adult would act in varying situations then fine full blackbelt, failing that Junior BB every time.

[bushido_man96]

Martial Arts is Martial Arts; driving a car is driving a car. Not the same thing, and trying to compare them doesn't really do either justice.

Just because it seems unsafe to teach a younger child how to do a neck crank, doesn't discount the fact that the child could attain black belt level in a style.

When I teach adults, I make sure they understand to use their judgement, and avoid situations in which they would fight if at all possible. I tell kids the same kinds of things; don't use your MA on the playground, and avoid fighting at all costs. Do I teach kids to punch to the throat? No. But does that mean they couldn't learn how to do that later if need be, as an adult? No.

So to me, it sounds like this:

"You're a kid, and so your punch to the body, knife hand strike to the body, or to the head."

"Ok, so now your 16. Let me show you the secrets of how to kill with Karate. Instead of punching the body or the head, punch to the throat. Aim your knife hand strike to neck. Now, you are ready to be a full dan grade."

Perhaps I am over simplifying things, but this is how I read the reasons others give in holding back junior grades.

[DWx]

I consider having a blackbelt the same as having a driving licence. In the UK its 17 before a person can drive, 16 in some states in the USA.

A car is a lethal weapon, the same as martial arts are lethal too. You cannot trust a pre-16 year old to grasp the what, where, when, why and why not, should not, would not etc. Regardless of size or gender.

No one has said to me, its ok to teach a neck wrench and how it would work etc and when where and why etc on a pre-16 year old. It's all down to maturity. If the candidate is mature enough and can act as a Adult would act in varying situations then fine full blackbelt, failing that Junior BB every time.

I don't think that analogy really holds true. Mostly the reason why we have the age restriction is because there's no way the government (or DVLA) can take a personal approach and look at the maturity level of each applicant. I would hope that as the instructor of a blackbelt candidate, you would have spent 3+ years getting to know the person and would be able to assess what they were mature enough to grade and if not, hold them back based on that and not age. And of course, as you often see driving around, not all 16/17 year olds are mature enough to be driving a car in the first place.

Also FYI, as an aside, you can drive a car at any age on private property and you can compete in certain types of motorsport from the age of 8.

Besides which, the blackbelt doesn't mean anything like the car licence does. Unless you're saying that the syllabus is different, as in you're not going to teach them certain content until they mature, then why not just hold them at 1st kyu? Why make them do that additional grading to get the JBB? Unless you want the money??

Also if we really want to take a look at deadly weapons (in the UK), shotgun licenses have no minimum age; it's up to the discretion of the issuing police force. There have even been a number of cases where a person under 10 years old have been deemed responsible enough to be granted a license. As it happens, I think I was around 14 when I first got mine which is the same age I got my blackbelt.

[Dobbersky]

bushido_man96 & DWx, awesome points. I appologise my reasoning didn't come across as I wanted it to. It was written on my Android phone.

But its its not about the money, having 18 KUP/GUP grades between white belt and black belt is.

For My students to gain Adult Black belt they need only spar with the adults, no extra cost. to get Junior 2nd Dan the syllabus provides another set of Kata etc. again, to gain Adult Black belt they just spar with the adults

IF you look at the programmes set by some of the Family Martial Arts Centres (FMAC's) and even in Judo you have different grades etc. You could say these are money cows:

In Judo you have MON grades which at a certain age become KYU Grades, but the highest MON grade only equates to the middle of the KYU grades anyway, nowhere near Adult Black belt.

In the FMAC's you have the tiger tot programme followed by the tiger dragon programme followed by the Cadet Programme followed by the Adult Intro programme followed by the Adult Intermediate programme followed by the Adult Senior Programme followed by the Blackbelt Programme folowed by the Teaching Programme etc etc. now this IS in it for the money.

This is not what the thread is about, its about is a 10+ year old EQUAL to, nothing less, an Adult holding the same black belt level. I would and stand by my answer and that is NO they are not, hence why they don't get a FULL black belt until I say they are.

It is 10 year old Johnny getting a Blackbelt in Karate which has turned karate into the "Soft Art" as considered by other Stylists in other Arts especial from Jujitsu etc. I know because I hear this all the time when I speak to people about my karate.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Dobbersky

[DWx]

Dobbersky, I didn't mean the money comment aimed at you specifically, I just have a hard time accepting why some schools even bother with the age restriction on the BB rank at all if the only thing that separates them is this maturity criteria or what they are physically capable of. The idea of maturity is so dependant on the individual. I personally would just assess each student on a case by case basis. And as I said previously, unless you are going to hold back smaller adults, like say a 5' 110 lb woman, you can't necessarily discriminate against younger students as a lot of them can be bigger than that.

FWIW my own style does use them but the JBB has less strenuous requirements and if the student really wishes to, they can try the adult test for a full BB. I don't condone it TBH and if or when I have my own school, I'd probably just keep the student at 1st gup.

[Dobbersky]

Dobbersky, I didn't mean the money comment aimed at you specifically, ....

DWx, no totally agree, just adding to this what's becoming excellent thread, its awesome thank you my friend, OSU