10 year old Black Belts!

[Dobbersky]

What is your criteria for issuing Blackbelts?

There are a lot of schools now giving "FULL" blackbelts to kids as young as 8 years old so by the time they are 16 they're a fully fledged 3rd Dan Black Belt.

I personally give Junior Blackbelts to anyone under 16 years old so it would be Junior 1st Dan - Blackbelt with 1 white stripe through the middle (some use the same belt for Shodan Ho) and Junior 2nd Dan - Blackbelt with 2 white stripes through the middle.

At 16 they grade for Adult 1st Dan.

I only accept students from 7 years upwards as I believe any younger take too much time to teach.

Do you think that Child BlackBelts are the prodogy of McDojos? Below is the link to a webpage and one of the sections on McDojo's just for clarification.

http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/

Warning signs and red flags of McDojos

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There are some schools that can be described as a full fledged 100% McDojo just from a few characteristics or descriptions, and then there are some schools that are alright but still exhibit some McDojo tendencies. What is important is to be able to tell the flaming McDojos from the modestly alright schools, and then obviously from the real non-McDojo schools.

******Red flags******

---------------> If the school exhibits any of these, even just one, it is a 100% McDojo, without a doubt or question. <---------------

Kid black belts: the younger the black belt, the worse the school is.

Belt Factory: If students are promoted quickly, such as reaching a new rank every two months, and/or reaching black belt in less than 3 years. Skill is usually superseded by the ability to pay for testing fees.

Lack of sparring: the school rarely spars or never spars, for whatever reason.

Point sparring: If the ONLY sparring that is done is "point" or "tournament" sparring, or is watered down with numerous rules such as no contact or light contact, no punching to the head, no catching, trips, throws, take downs, joint locks, grappling, hits to the back, legs, below the belt, etc… and the techniques encouraged are kicks, jump kicks, and spins.

Instructor claims to be a high ranking master (such as 9th degree) and is under 50

******Warning Signs*******

Warning signs: Like the red flags, they identify McDojos. The difference is that just exhibiting one doesn't mean that the school is a 100% McDojo with as much confidence and assurance as the above red flags, but it is most likely a McDojo. If the school exhibits a couple of these traits it is a McDojo:

Instead of focusing on sparring, the class is mostly divided into practicing kata/forms, one-steps, board breaks, etc..

The school or instructor promotes the idea that his school and/or style is the ultimate best in the world, or that cross training in another form of martial arts is 100% unnecessary.

If the school or instructor forbids entering tournaments, or if tournaments are restricted to specific styles or associations.

If the idea of take-downs or wrestling is never addressed, or if "anti-grappling" techniques are taught.

If the test for belt advancement consists mostly or entirely of memorization and making your form & one-steps look pretty

If board breaking has a heavy emphasis, or is taught to be an indicating to how well you would fight, or is used as a supplement to full contact fighting.

If the school has too many belts, or made up belts (such as camouflage belts)

If the school insists on long contracts and or uses collection agencies for late or missed payments.

If there are expensive clubs that you must join in order to learn or participate in various clinics or seminars, such as the "black belt club", or "masters club"

If the school owns an actual franchise, such as "Karate for Kids" or "Tiny Tigers"

If the school uses a pitch book to get you to join or to convince you to sign your kids up

If the self-defense techniques that are taught aren't at full speed or contact, or if the school is insistent only on one way of doing it

If the equipment (gear/uniforms/weapons) costs too much and/or is only ordered through the organization

If testing and monthly fees are excessive, for any reason

If the instructor is a master, yet under 40.

If the instructor's credentials seem sketchy or are non-existent.

If the instructor proclaims to be a master of many arts, and is also extremely young.

If the school advertises that the grandmaster of the style regularly teaches there

If the school has many students, such as over 100, or if there are many black belts

If once reaching black belt students are encouraged to go start their own school or consider teaching

If ground-fighting is offered, it's exclusive to club members (which usually have a high fee) and/or not allowed until a high rank

The instructor rarely works out with the students and has his assistants do most or all of the teaching

If they teach weapons like the sai and nunchaku as a form of self-defense

If they are a Chinese martial art and use karate belts

If they glorify or try to imitate the Samurai or ninja.

[darksoul]

In my dojo, under 18 are junior black belts (black with red-stripe through.)

They get the same respect as full black-belts (everyone kneels when they put on their belts, etc...) but are not 1st Dan.

At 18, they can then test for their official black belt.

The youngest junior black belt I've ever seen was 14 years old and she truly was remarkable and completely worthy of her rank. I don't think the rank has ever been awarded to anyone younger.

Where I trained was a franchise, but luckily, MY dojo was a not a McDojo. Some other dojo's in the franchise were, but I was trained by a 4th Dan first, then 5th Dan. The training was never dragged out for more money, our belts weren't awarded every 2 months, and it took me 7 years to get my black belt. My sensei eventually broke ties with the franchise because he wasn't happy with the "corporation" trying to push McDojo aspects down his throat. The school is now called Ancient Path Martial Arts in North Vancouver, BC, but it was part of the United Studios of Self Defense franchise before.

I still have a USSD patch on my gi because that's where I started, but I also have an Ancient Path patch.

So... yeah

I feel the need to edit this a bit to express that in my dojo, we did full contact sparring, we did grappling, we did submission. We had a few students from other USSD dojos come and train with us and it was easy to see they were not comfortable with some of the stuff we did. Their sparring skills were nearly nonexistent. I'm not a great sparrer, but I have won bronze in an open martial arts tournament at brown belt so I'm not horrible, but these guys were like deer in headlights.

We practiced our DM's at full speed with full, yet controlled contact (i.e. we wouldn't give a full-strength ridge hand to the groin, but we would lightly, but solidly ridge-hand the inner thigh) and we regularly outshone in USSD tournaments.

I'm now in Montreal and studying under Master Paquette who is not from a franchise and he found my skill to be at the level of a true first dan.

I also wear size 9 boots and prefer boxer briefs

[FangPwnsAll7]

In my class, we have a 6 year old black belt. So he had to have started at age 2 or something. That's the youngest I've saw.

[Wastelander]

We have two black belts under the age of 18, and both of them are 14 (they were just promoted in May) but they are jun-shodan so they have the black belt with the white stripe down the center. At 16 they will be old enough to take the adult shodan exam.

[FangPwnsAll7]

Well, I think that if a student has earned a black belt, then they can get a black belt, no matter what age.

[DoctorQui]

Well, I think that if a student has earned a black belt, then they can get a black belt, no matter what age.

If you are saying thay a junior should be awarded a full Dan at any age then I can't agree with you.

As many have said, there should and normally always is, in my experience, junior Dan grades which last until 18 (16 in some cases) after which adult Dan grades issued on completion of a full Dan grading.

Junior Dan generally do NOT undertake the same grading or complete the same requirements of a full adult Dan. In fact, there are some techniques that juniors are not permitted perform until they are adults. For example, in some styles, to get Dan grade you have to do full contact kumite (no pads) and it would be entirely inappropriate for children as young as 7 or 8 to do this. In a previous style, Dan grading was extremely strenuous and exhausting and again there is no way a child would or shoulf be expected to do something even an adult finds challenging to the point of possibly failing.

No, imo Dan grades should be age bound and certainly should not be given to children under 12. In addition, generally, 1st Dan is the grade where many people stop training so extending the time it takes to get there (particularly for children) separates the wheat from the chaff in terms of attitude and goals.

[darksoul]

As my sensei explained, a black belt is a weapon. A 10 year old, no matter how good, won't be a weapon against an adult.

In any case, junior-black belts, sure, but even then, not before 14. Not full Dans.

[FangPwnsAll7]

I think I'm going to a McDojo because after I read this, I said yes to almost everything. xD

[DoctorQui]

I do agree with most of the red flags for 100% with the exception of having young black belts.

I've already shown my colours over kids with BBs but at my Dojo, we have young BBs with about 10 kids under 11. The reason in my Dojo for having a lot of such young BBs is because their parents are all 3rd Dan and above, trained at the club for years and have been teaching their kids Karate since they could say their first words. These kids were already at a high standard when they first started and simply progressed in line with the clubs timescales.

I train with my step daughter who started in March. I had taught her quite a bit before she joined because she was interested. The night she started, the chief instructor asked me if I had been coaching her because she got all her form and techniques spot on straight away. There was a grading coming up 3 weeks later and she graded because she was good enough, she actually double graded. Now after 4 months, she is about to take 5th Kyu and she is advance to the point where the instructor is now using time to get on with her next Kata which she already knows it as she is extrememly dedicated to Karate and I catch her practising virtually every day. She actually puts me to shame! At the rate she is going, she will be BB at 13 (she is 11).

My club has a membership of only 35 students across the district (3 classes) so it doesn't really make money and the chief instructor is not a full time instructor so not what I would calla McDojo to the letter of the red flag.

[DWx]

While I agree with most of those points on the list I don't think answering yes to any of them immediately means your school is a McDojo. McDojo's exist to make money and often result in bad martial arts. They often have those qualities listed above but other legitimate schools might also still say yes to those questions.

Just picking up on some points:

If the instructor is a master, yet under 40.

Many Korean styles will label 4th dans as a master. Its perfectly normal to be a 4th dan by the age of 40.

If the school advertises that the grandmaster of the style regularly teaches there.

Depends on the school and location. If you're fortunate enough to train close to where a higher up is based (s)he may very well visit your school often. The head of my TKD association lives about 1 hr away from us so he sometimes drops in for training.

If the school has many students, such as over 100, or if there are many black belts

Again this doesn't necessarily have to mean you train at a McDojo. Your instructor(s) are just good at what they do and have built up a large student base over the years. For example my instructor teaches 6 days a week and has 150+ students, ~40 of which are blackbelts.

I think the majority of the points on that list have exceptions.