I Have a General Karate Question

[matt71]

I have a question about Karate in general that I washoping someone with some experience could answer for me.

When I was a teenager, I took Shotokan Karate for a short time. I didn't understand how the moves used in kata could be used in a real fight. Even when we sparred, all of the moves we learned were not fast enough if executed the same way as they are in kata. We never brought a hand back to our waist when punching or blocking when we sparred. Even the black belts wouldn't do that simply because it would leave them open to another punch or kick. And stances weren't used either. Both fighters would stand straight up and stay that way.Why train that way in kata when it's not used in sparring or fighting?

I understand that more power is generated by pulling one hand back when hitting or blocking, but if it was meant to use in an actual fighting situation I've never seen it. It just does not seem to be practical. I understand that stances give better stability, but it just doesn't seem that in a sparring match or an actual fighting situation, any of it is used. It becomes kick boxing to the point where you can't tell one style of Karate from another. The only time I've seen an obvious difference between styles is when kata are performed.

These questions have bothered me for awhile. I appreciate the time anyone takes to answer and explain because I know that I may be missing a point here since I'm not very well versed in all martial arts.

[sensei8]

While Kata is an interpretation at best, it's an interpretation none the less. What looks like this and that, it's application(s) are something entirely different. That returning punch to ones side, as in kata, might be a movement of its own, and not a returning punch at all.

Kata teaches transitions...these transitions, while they don't duplicate Kata movement(s) exactly, they are still transitions none the less. Transitions are the embodiment of movement.

While movement(s) during Kumite do not imitate Kata movement(s), the understanding of transitional movement(s) are still there. I move not to move like my opponent, but to move effectively to and through my opponent.

I want my movements to be like a thief in the night; unseen by my opponent!!

Master the transitions and not the Kata/Kumite; it'll make all the world of a difference.

[JohnnyB]

Deep Stances are emphasized for beginners as a mean of obtaining good form in addition to building up your leg muscles.

Its commonly known in Karate that when fighting/sparring the Karateka stands naturally.

Quoting Master Funakoshi's 17th Precept of Karate:

17. Formal stances are for beginners; later, one stands naturally.

Kamae wa shoshinsha ni atowa shizentai.

[matt71]

Thank you both for answering my question.

Sensei8, I went to Youtube to look up and see if there was any mention of kata and application and I see that there is in self defense situations. The practice is referred to as bunkai. Thinking about it, I remember just starting to learn that with the first kata in Shotokan called Heian Shodan. So as you mentioned, there are several applications of the moves in kata and some are not obvious.

JohnnyB, I wasn't in Shotokan for very long but learned some basic background about Master Funakoshi but didn't know about his precepts. I'll look into a book to study more on his precepts and philosophy.

Thank you both for answering my questions and helping me to understand.

So, kata is not so different then the original movie Karate Kid. There was Daniel doing chores-wax on wax off, sanding the floor and painting the fence. In essence it was kata. He didn't know the application but he did it so much that it stuck and then when he was shown exactly how to use these moves, it was a moment of enlightenment due to the surprise that he was learning how to defend himself without even knowing it.

[DoctorQui]

The indepth answers have alreaady been given but if I may answer it more simply and in a way I understood it.

Kata is form and is the technical move in its entirety emphasising on a specific attack. Its a sort of demonstration of ones defence and attack moves. Its the same with simple technique, you follow through with the entire move, from (in Shotokan) fist at obi and other hand in marking position before you follow through with your geagi uke. In doing so you learn power and delivery.

In reality, you have no idea where your opponent will attack from.

Basically, before you can effectively use your moves you have to understand why the form has been developed and like everything else, as you become more experienced you develop your own way.

I love Kihon kata because its a firm foundation, its not a particularly difficult kata and responds only to specific attacks, but as good a karateka you may be, returning to basic form helps you to re-tune and check your technique.

[ShoriKid]

One thing that is very important too when looking at the practicallity of kata and how things look different in free sparring than they do in forms is this: sparring is not fighting/self defense and that's what kata are meant to be applied for.

That hand chambered on your hip has nothing to do with power generation in punches and blocks. It has a to do with controlling a limb you've grabbed during the conflict. Stances are transitional as well. You don't drop to zenkutsu dachi and go at it. But you may get control of a limb, and while pulling it back (that chambered hand) drop your weight and shift into zenkutsu before launching a front kick.

If you want to see something that that doesn't look like kick boxing and you see more of what a lot of kata was built for try the following. Tie the two people about to spar together with a spare belt. Give them about two feet of gap and let them have at it. Limbs will tangle, trapping starts getting important and shifting weight and stance starts being a way to control someone's posture.

[brickshooter]

I have a question about Karate in general that I washoping someone with some experience could answer for me.

When I was a teenager, I took Shotokan Karate for a short time. I didn't understand how the moves used in kata could be used in a real fight. Even when we sparred, all of the moves we learned were not fast enough if executed the same way as they are in kata. We never brought a hand back to our waist when punching or blocking when we sparred. Even the black belts wouldn't do that simply because it would leave them open to another punch or kick. And stances weren't used either. Both fighters would stand straight up and stay that way.Why train that way in kata when it's not used in sparring or fighting?

I understand that more power is generated by pulling one hand back when hitting or blocking, but if it was meant to use in an actual fighting situation I've never seen it. It just does not seem to be practical. I understand that stances give better stability, but it just doesn't seem that in a sparring match or an actual fighting situation, any of it is used. It becomes kick boxing to the point where you can't tell one style of Karate from another. The only time I've seen an obvious difference between styles is when kata are performed.

These questions have bothered me for awhile. I appreciate the time anyone takes to answer and explain because I know that I may be missing a point here since I'm not very well versed in all martial arts.

IMO, things such as pulling the hands to the hips or deep stances are displayed in kumite. But only in a blink. It's so quick or subtle that most people don't see it.

Also the language barrier sort of distorts how things work. If I tell someone to get into a front stance before punching, they look at me cross-eyed. If I tell them to step into their punches, they get it immediately. Or if I tell people to withdraw their hands to their hips before punching, the same cross-eyed. But if I tell them to cock and load up on their punches, they get it.

With Kata, you're primarily learning to burn correct muscle memory into your brains. You're learning to not punch while leaning back. You're learning to not slap-punch. Instead you're learning to "step into" your punches, and "load up" on your punches.

Get it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOTYvORlzKs

Anyways, I've added a youtube video (above) from a Shotocup match. If you're able to slow the action down, you'll see the deep front stances + withdrawing the fist to the hips action. And in the last match, you'll see what happens when a fighter fail to pull his punches (he got a little frustrated at the non-calls, and decides to land one on a much bigger opponent.)

[tallgeese]

This application thing is where you lose a lot based on who you're training with, ect. and if they are up on the tuite application contained within or not.

If you're into kata, find a school that can get beyond the surface of it. If not, there are plenty of karate based arts that don't rely on it any longer and just practice such things outright.

[SlowHands]

hi matt71, i think everyone has pretty much answered your question, but here is a video to help supplement the idea -

Iain Abernethy is known to provide exceptional explanations of kata bunkai. i hope this helps!