Press ups as a punishment!

[DoctorQui]

They can punish me all they want, I'll just get fitter!

But what about when it interferes with karate training and becomes a particular instructors raison d'etre. In a typical hour, we would have 15 mins of warm up (including press ups, sit ups et al) then then 45 minutes of karate training including technique, kata and sparring!

On Tuesday evening, this particular instructor was taking the calss, we had the usual 15 mins warm up then when it came to the session, we were doing 10-20 push ups everytime a child got there left or right mixed up, if he didn't think we were saying OSU loud enough. He even made us all do push ups when he didn't think a certain student was kicking high enough (until I pointed out to him at the end that that student had an injury)! Why didn't that student speak out, well 5 mins before he made us all do 20 for another student speaking out when they were trying to tell the instructor something (I couldn't hear what it was!). I worked out at the end that we had had about 15 minutes of karate and 45 minutes of push ups. Not exactly what most people pay for really!

For the record, I have not problem with using discipline when its required, but in my opinion, dishing it out to establish authority where it isn't necessary and for such silly reasons is not constructive particularly where paying adult students are concerned.

My main instructor is an 8th Dan and I have never known him dish push ups out, he doesn't need to however this 3rd Dan seems to enjoy the power!

[Harkon72]

I agree, if it's part of a draconian regime and is over used to the detriment of the Karate; then like all distractions, it is a waste of time.

[bushido_man96]

They can punish me all they want, I'll just get fitter!

But what about when it interferes with karate training and becomes a particular instructors raison d'etre. In a typical hour, we would have 15 mins of warm up (including press ups, sit ups et al) then then 45 minutes of karate training including technique, kata and sparring!

On Tuesday evening, this particular instructor was taking the calss, we had the usual 15 mins warm up then when it came to the session, we were doing 10-20 push ups everytime a child got there left or right mixed up, if he didn't think we were saying OSU loud enough. He even made us all do push ups when he didn't think a certain student was kicking high enough (until I pointed out to him at the end that that student had an injury)! Why didn't that student speak out, well 5 mins before he made us all do 20 for another student speaking out when they were trying to tell the instructor something (I couldn't hear what it was!). I worked out at the end that we had had about 15 minutes of karate and 45 minutes of push ups. Not exactly what most people pay for really!

For the record, I have not problem with using discipline when its required, but in my opinion, dishing it out to establish authority where it isn't necessary and for such silly reasons is not constructive particularly where paying adult students are concerned.

My main instructor is an 8th Dan and I have never known him dish push ups out, he doesn't need to however this 3rd Dan seems to enjoy the power!

I think you have an instructor who thinks he's a drill sergeant, or something. If this many people in the class are messing up that bad, instead of making everyone do pushups, which just makes the person causing the pushups feel bad or embarrassed or both, and taking time away from everyone, they need to be separated and given 1-on-1 time to help them out.

If worse comes to worse, just let these few trod on more slowly, and hold them out of some gradings until they are ready. Holding an entire class back doesn't help anyone.

[DoctorQui]

They can punish me all they want, I'll just get fitter!

But what about when it interferes with karate training and becomes a particular instructors raison d'etre. In a typical hour, we would have 15 mins of warm up (including press ups, sit ups et al) then then 45 minutes of karate training including technique, kata and sparring!

On Tuesday evening, this particular instructor was taking the calss, we had the usual 15 mins warm up then when it came to the session, we were doing 10-20 push ups everytime a child got there left or right mixed up, if he didn't think we were saying OSU loud enough. He even made us all do push ups when he didn't think a certain student was kicking high enough (until I pointed out to him at the end that that student had an injury)! Why didn't that student speak out, well 5 mins before he made us all do 20 for another student speaking out when they were trying to tell the instructor something (I couldn't hear what it was!). I worked out at the end that we had had about 15 minutes of karate and 45 minutes of push ups. Not exactly what most people pay for really!

For the record, I have not problem with using discipline when its required, but in my opinion, dishing it out to establish authority where it isn't necessary and for such silly reasons is not constructive particularly where paying adult students are concerned.

My main instructor is an 8th Dan and I have never known him dish push ups out, he doesn't need to however this 3rd Dan seems to enjoy the power!

I think you have an instructor who thinks he's a drill sergeant, or something. If this many people in the class are messing up that bad, instead of making everyone do pushups, which just makes the person causing the pushups feel bad or embarrassed or both, and taking time away from everyone, they need to be separated and given 1-on-1 time to help them out.

If worse comes to worse, just let these few trod on more slowly, and hold them out of some gradings until they are ready. Holding an entire class back doesn't help anyone.

Couldn't agree more

[Alpha One Four]

My sensei makes us do the exercise, form, punch or whatever over and over until we get it right. The whole class does it until everyone gets it right if it is a group activity. I hate kids that goof around.

As for a punishment, adults generally listen, so they may not hear the instruction correctly. No need to punish that. If a child just outright refuses to do something, you tell the parent he cant do anything until he wants to listen. Simple. Should an adult do that, there is no point in having him in the class anyway.

[ps1]

Again I reiterate:

Exercise is a terrible form of punishment. We live in a world where obesity is beginning to run rampant. Kids need to embrace exercise and fitness, not look at it as a punishment. Operant conditioning teaches us 4 methods of behavior modification:

Positive Reinforcement: The addition of something desirable to encourage a desired behavior. ("Good job lifting that knee up high on your kick Billy." We've added public recognition for a desirable action)

Negative Reinforcement: The removal of something undesirable to encourage a desired behavior. ("Billy, you did so well tonight you can sit out of soji." We remove Billy's undesireable cleaning duty to encourage his behiavior)

Positive Punishment: The addition of something undesirable to discourage a behavior. ("Billy, you spoke out of turn, do 20 pushups." The pushups are the added stimulus designed to discourage speaking out of turn.)

Negative Punishment: The removal of something desirable to discourage a behavior. ("Billy, you struck your partner. You will not test tomorrow." The desirable event of testing is removed to discourage the act of striking a partner.)

I find combining as many types as possible, each time I want to correct a behavior, to be the most effective method. When some one acts up, I ask them to sit against the wall and not participate in class until I call them back into class. At that point I pay absolutely no attention to the student (that they can see). Once I see the student is calm and attentive, that's when I will call them back into class. Usually, it's less than 2 minutes.

Here's what I've done:

Negative Punishment: Removed public recognition by not paying attention

Negative Punishment: Removed their ability to practice moves for a time

Positive Punishment: Added solitude

Positive Reinforcement: Add the ability to practice to reinforce appropriate actions the moment they occur.

This tends to work very well wit kids due to their maturity level.

With adults, it's very rare, but I simply call them out on inappropriate behavior. But adults tend to want to learn and be attentive all on their own.

I just get annoyed seeing fat martial artists using exercise as punishment. What message is that sending to the kids?

[DoctorQui]

Again I reiterate:

Exercise is a terrible form of punishment. We live in a world where obesity is beginning to run rampant. Kids need to embrace exercise and fitness, not look at it as a punishment. Operant conditioning teaches us 4 methods of behavior modification:

Positive Reinforcement: The addition of something desirable to encourage a desired behavior. ("Good job lifting that knee up high on your kick Billy." We've added public recognition for a desirable action)

Negative Reinforcement: The removal of something undesirable to encourage a desired behavior. ("Billy, you did so well tonight you can sit out of soji." We remove Billy's undesireable cleaning duty to encourage his behiavior)

Positive Punishment: The addition of something undesirable to discourage a behavior. ("Billy, you spoke out of turn, do 20 pushups." The pushups are the added stimulus designed to discourage speaking out of turn.)

Negative Punishment: The removal of something desirable to discourage a behavior. ("Billy, you struck your partner. You will not test tomorrow." The desirable event of testing is removed to discourage the act of striking a partner.)

I find combining as many types as possible, each time I want to correct a behavior, to be the most effective method. When some one acts up, I ask them to sit against the wall and not participate in class until I call them back into class. At that point I pay absolutely no attention to the student (that they can see). Once I see the student is calm and attentive, that's when I will call them back into class. Usually, it's less than 2 minutes.

Here's what I've done:

Negative Punishment: Removed public recognition by not paying attention

Negative Punishment: Removed their ability to practice moves for a time

Positive Punishment: Added solitude

Positive Reinforcement: Add the ability to practice to reinforce appropriate actions the moment they occur.

This tends to work very well wit kids due to their maturity level.

With adults, it's very rare, but I simply call them out on inappropriate behavior. But adults tend to want to learn and be attentive all on their own.

I just get annoyed seeing fat martial artists using exercise as punishment. What message is that sending to the kids?

Very solid post!

I think the purpose of this thread has been misunderstood just a little in that my main point was is it right for adults to be punished like kids when they make a mistake. The reason for punishment is discipline. Does an undisciplined adult really bother to actually pay for a karate class in which he is required to obey instructions?

One example for me is when I attended a class a few months back. It was in a very big building. When I went to the usual door, it was locked (I was 10 minutes early) I couldn't get anyone to answer the door so I had to walk around the other side of the building (a very large school), gain access via an intercom, then I had to get through 3 further security doors, each one via intercom, this took me 15 mins. I got changed and went to bow in only to be told to do 20 for being late which became 30 when I tried to explain why I was late! I'm 42! I wanted to respond, 'get lost mate, I'm off!' but did as I was told in order to maintain the intergrety of the club (there were a few kids and parents there!). Suffice to say I was not happy!

At the end it appeared that the instructor arrived after a few students and then closed the door behind him only remembering to go back and open it after I had come and gone. As a result, several students turned up and went home because they couldn't get a response, I went the extra mile and got in and was punished for my efforts.

It is the same instructor that does this! There are a number of other instructors including the chief who has never to my knowledged punished anyone.

I am considering challenging this guy when he does something like this in the future, not publicly of course, because I really think that he continues with this behaviour because noone has ever called him on it. I have never accepted bullying and don't really want to start now and imo, bullying is exactly what this guy is doing. I have seen some very unreasonable 'punishments' in recent months from this guy who seems to think, as a 3rd Dan, he is untouchable. Even my 8th Dan instructor is happy to challenged!

[Lupin1]

For an adult that's misbehaving, just tell them to go home. Punishing adults is just silly unless the punishment directly teaches a lesson (like the few times I've forgotten to take my watch off and my instructor used it for a demonstration of how it could be used as a "force multiplier" that generally left me on the ground with a clear understanding of why I should remember to take if off in the future).

The head instructor ended up basically doing that the other night at our class. We had a very small adult class that night (usually do)-- just me and a nidan with the head instructor working with us. This particular nidan has a bad habit of just not knowing when to keep his mouth shut. He argues with the instructors, feels the need to try to clarify every little thing to me after the instructors say it even if I had no problem understanding it, and just generally not knowing how to "shut up and train". This has been made even worse recently by our head instructor having complications with his cancer treatments which have left it very difficult for him to speak, so when this guy starts arguing with him, it's really hard for him to even get a word in. There were times I've even told the guy "______, stop talking and just LISTEN to him". But anyway, the other day he was arguing with him for like five minutes straight while I was in the corner working on a new piece of my kata he gave me and finally the head instructor just told us both to pack up and go home, class was over. I wasn't too upset because I had gone to the kids' class earlier and so had already been training for an hour and a half and he had just invited me to come over his house any time I want and he'll work with me since he's currently home and bored constantly since he can't work due to his recent disability, but still-- why punish adults? If they're being difficult just tell them to go home and come back when they're ready to actually train.

[sensei8]

Instructors will differ in the way they delve out punishments to their students, in that, a student should determine if said punishment(s) are something that they don't want to be a part of whether it's short term or long term.

I've my ways, but I believe that my ways are quite firm, yet quite positive. If not, then my students aren't obligated to stay, and in that, I won't hold anything against them.

Students have to make their choices for themselves, and parents have to make choices for their children(s).

Again, the summation of "why" is to the summation of "because"....on both sides of the fence...imho.

[bushido_man96]

DoctorQui: it sounds like that instructor might be on a bit of a power trip more than anything. I think you should address him in private about the issues you have, and see where it goes from there.