Mr Heel Hook Posted January 28, 2003 Posted January 28, 2003 Get your facts right please. Royce DIDN'T tap. Yoshida looked up to the ref and said he was out. How is that tapping in the first place? Secondly, have any of you ever lost consciousness from a choke?? You dont jump to your feet and say "What the hell is going on!?" No, you lay there a moment and struggle to understand what was going on. As Royce did when he was put out by clock choke against Walid. They both went over to the judges and Royce was telling Yoshuda he better take that back because he wasnt out and he damn well knew that. I saw the fight, and I saw from the angles the choke was not secure. Aside from that though, Like I said at first, you DO NOT bounce to your feet after having your lights out. "A deer admires a lion. But all the members of our family are lions. So it doesn't matter which lion I admire. " -Rener Gracie-
Dober Posted January 28, 2003 Posted January 28, 2003 I just watched the fight, Royce did not pass out or tap out. What a joke of a ref that was. He might of examined the situation in detail for about 2 seconds before decalaring a win for the judo player. White Belt - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
LOILOI44 Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 All I've heard in this thread is how the ref was wrong, how it was a bad call. Is it so inconceivible that a gold medal, world champion Judoka can defeat a Gracie? It's not like he was just some dude off the street, he was an excellent martial artist. The Gracies have a legendary reputation in the martial arts world, but will not win every match. This is why we actually have sporting events. On any given day, anybody can lose. I'm sure enough money will be waved in people's faces and there will be a rematch. Till then, Gracie lost; end of story!
Mr Heel Hook Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 Ummm...no, that's not the end of the story by any means. Nothing you said changed the point of what happened. How it wasn't a legitimate win. Royce didn't tap. The Ref COULD NOT stop the match under ANY circumstances. That was in the contract that Royce demanded. And they agreed to it. Secondly: The choke wasn't in. How clear can that be? You say you practice Jiu Jitsu, then you must have been choked out by now, or at least seen someone go through it. Do they bounce right up to their feet? No, they don't, they sit there a moment and gather themselves looking terribly confused. It was clear as day the choke wasn't set in. Again something you should have seen. That is if we saw the same fight... It's not a matter of conception. The point is it was a BAD call. A call like that ends the fight and no one knows what would have happened. It was such a bad call it even has a joke phrase in the fight world "the mystery choke" No one is saying Royce won, the point is he didn't lose. The point is that Yoshida did NOT win. He did not win because the match was supposed to be stopped only by a TAP. Not a call by the REF. In my mind, he cheated. He called the REF in when he knew he couldn't. Response: Blah blah blah, he didn't want to Kill Royce. Again, I believe he cheated cause the choke wasn't in. He KNEW it wasn't, he just wanted a quick win. You, like any other grappler knows when a choke is in. Again, like said before so many time. When you are choked out you DO NOT jump right up to your feet and get in peoples faces. You are woozy, befuddled, confused...you pick the adjective. "A deer admires a lion. But all the members of our family are lions. So it doesn't matter which lion I admire. " -Rener Gracie-
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted January 29, 2003 Posted January 29, 2003 loiloi your so opposed to bjj its unbelieveble, why didn't the g-d damn referee call it, its not up to the fighter , your turning this into a bjj v.s. judo thread and your definately wrong i can't wait for the rematch and royce will defeat him i agree with mr.heel hook , have you never been choked out loiloi? "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
LOILOI44 Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 JJfighter please show me a post where I am anti-BJJ I never said anything like that. I just don't subscribe to the same belief that you do; that BJJ is the ultimate art. There is no such thing. God himself did not create BJJ and hand it down to the Gracies. If I am not mistaken, the rules of NHB say that if the ref feels a fighter is in danger, he can call the fight. Yoshida did not stop the fight, the ref did. You might not agree with the call, but the fact is that the ref called it, and it was his right to do so. If I use your logic, the The Giants did not lose to the 49ers in the NFL Playoffs. It was a bad call by the refs, but they still ultimately lost. I've heard nothing but excuses on this thread. Royce wasn't in "game mode", it was a bad call, it was a conspiracy by the Yakuza to make the Gracies look bad. I'm not turning this into a BJJ vs Judo thread. The fact is, agree with it or not Gracie lost. He did not lose to Butterbean, or Joey Buttafuco. He lost to a gold medal, world class Judo player. There will be a rematch I am sure. If Gracie loses again what will the excuse be? Did he not have his rice krispies? Royce Gracie is a great martial artist. Probably one of the best alive today. He's done more for the martial arts than anybody in recent memory. I'm not anti-BJJ like you claim. The whole Gracie family have their place in MA history. As far as if I have ever been choked out, I have been choked; but never unconscious. Is that some new technique to be choked and to lose consciousness? If so, what can you learn from it? Some chokes work very slowly. You might not know your are being choked till it's too late
SBN Doug Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 JJfighter please show me a post where I am anti-BJJ I never said anything like that. I have to agree. I see nothing but respectful comments being made regarding the skills of the Gracies, and effectiveness of BJJ. Please refrain from making these type of accusations. Thanks Kuk Sool Won - 4th danEvil triumphs when good men do nothing.
Mr Heel Hook Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 You are wrong--again. The stipulation to the match was that the REF could not stop the fight. That's that. And as for the point of being choked out, it was to realize that you do not just jump right up. "Some chokes work slow" so what are you saying, Yoshida knew the choke was a slow one and that it was in and that's why he said he was out? Mighty presumptuous...most people would say. The fact is that it was a TERRIBLE call and was not a win by any means to Yoshida. Everything I said you did not address cause you could not. I will stand by my previous post. I just thought it was silly about what you said about chokes...a slow choke...tch, how absurd. I find your post almost embarrassingly ignorant. You have said nothing that says to the contrary at what it is and what happened. As said before, it's even a joke in the fight world. The mystery choke. Your argument is based on conjecture, while what I have said is more or less fact. I'll even repost it so you can make your case against it. REPOST: Ummm...no, that's not the end of the story by any means. Nothing you said changed the point of what happened. How it wasn't a legitimate win. Royce didn't tap. The Ref COULD NOT stop the match under ANY circumstances. That was in the contract that Royce demanded. And they agreed to it. Secondly: The choke wasn't in. How clear can that be? You say you practice Jiu Jitsu, then you must have been choked out by now, or at least seen someone go through it. Do they bounce right up to their feet? No, they don't, they sit there a moment and gather themselves looking terribly confused. It was clear as day the choke wasn't set in. Again something you should have seen. That is if we saw the same fight... It's not a matter of conception. The point is it was a BAD call. A call like that ends the fight and no one knows what would have happened. It was such a bad call it even has a joke phrase in the fight world "the mystery choke" No one is saying Royce won, the point is he didn't lose. The point is that Yoshida did NOT win. He did not win because the match was supposed to be stopped only by a TAP. Not a call by the REF. In my mind, he cheated. He called the REF in when he knew he couldn't. Response: Blah blah blah, he didn't want to Kill Royce. Again, I believe he cheated cause the choke wasn't in. He KNEW it wasn't, he just wanted a quick win. You, like any other grappler knows when a choke is in. Again, like said before so many time. When you are choked out you DO NOT jump right up to your feet and get in peoples faces. You are woozy, befuddled, confused...you pick the adjective. PS: You seem to miss the point of the choke and what happens. When you are choked, you are unable to jump right up. But I guess from what you are saying, Yoshida's "grappling sense" was tingling and he knew he had Royce so why wait for Royce to tap or go to sleep? Yes, he is a great sportsman indeed. So to say again: Royce did not lose to Yoshida. Nor did Yoshida win. The match was null because of a bungled call. "A deer admires a lion. But all the members of our family are lions. So it doesn't matter which lion I admire. " -Rener Gracie-
jiu-jitsu fighter Posted January 31, 2003 Posted January 31, 2003 good one heel hook, "When we go to the ground,you are in my world, the ground is the ocean, I am the shark,and most people don't even know how to swim"
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