Reprogramming.

[Groinstrike]

Due to developments in the last few months i know find myself on the verge of possibly starting a career in law enforcement.

Due to this i have found myself in somewhat of a dilemma with my martial arts training. For the last 4.5 years i have been trained in a highly combative system that has its roots in Kempo jiujitsu, goju-ryu, jeet kun do, krav maga and many other arts both grappling based and striking based. While training i often find myself using more force than a police officer would be allowed to use. For example, redirecting a knife and plunging it into an assailants midsection may land you in a heap of trouble, especially if you are a public servant such as a cop.

So my question is this, what would be the best ways to reprogram oneself who has a tendency while training to use "overkill" when dispatching an assailant to, to use less forcefull techniques that would be less frowned upon by a law enforcement agency.

[sensei8]

Wow...that's a great question Clay, and seeing that I'm not a LEO, I'm not sure exactly how any LEO academy and/or any LEO Administration would reprogram a MAist to lessen his/her engrained MA training. "It's not I who hits..." comes to my mind.

It's like one who wants to be a LEO might have to tone themselves down quite a lot so that one doesn't find themselves in any administrative and/or legality punishments.

MAists are trained a certain way, and I'm only guessing, and LEO's are trained another certain way. A way that helps a LEO to control any situation within departmental policies, yet, controls the suspect within the most minimum force. LEO academies can train you "their way" but I don't see how "their way" will override all of your MA training.

Alex and Brian are both LEO's and they'll be better to address your said concerns than I would.

The monster amount of legalities that surround a LEO has to be staggering and quite debilitating in the course of a LEO's career.

Good luck!!

[Liver Punch]

It's that Sensei you've got...he enjoys a bit of excessive force from time to time. I'm sure this is something that Alex dealt with (and perhaps still deals with) when he started. In my day to day environment, the option to use force has arisen several times, and I have yet to take advantage of that option.

For me, it comes down to reminding myself that I'm here to help these people, and that whether or not they know it, they want my help. A LEO out in public is dealing with way more variables than I am, and the situation is obviously not as secure. Still, you've got a good head on your shoulders (assuming your brain jelly hasn't been thinned out due to trauma) and I think you fully understand the difference between life and death situations, and situations that warrant control.

As a police officer, the option to use the appropriate amount of force is certainly there, and I think it's understood by all parties involved. While there may be varying amounts of paperwork to go along with the varying amount of force, you're given the option in good faith that you'll make the right call.

I think most of the situations that we go through there while training are done so with an understanding of life or death consequences and often under more arduous circumstances. Back when the school had kids classes, dealing with less dangerous threats was something that considerable time was spent on. Nine year old yellow belts weren't allowed to play with knives, guns, and flying armbars...we had to learn how to dispel or control threats without excess violence. People who joined us later and moved straight into the advanced class got only a crash-course in minor violence before being introduced to "the fun stuff."

As you you close in on the eventuality of testing for black belt in the system, I'm voting that your potential change in career be reflected in your test. The idea that our art can be changed and modified to fit the individual is often applied to body type and other physical attributes. It goes further than that though. Beyond the core value of being able to defend one's self is to be able to apply it to your circumstances.

In Alex, and perhaps your case, the art should be adjusted to be applied to your job of law enforcement. For someone like this, instead of a black belt test being a brutal day-long exercise in death and destruction...it should be a brutal day-long exercise in shooting, use of force, controlling someone, identifying threats, and trying to get a statement from someone who's been hit with a "smoodie." (inside joke)

In short: change the purpose and focus of your training. I think the end result will look the same as what you're doing now, minus simulated dead bodies.

[Groinstrike]

It's that Sensei you've got...he enjoys a bit of excessive force from time to time. I'm sure this is something that Alex dealt with (and perhaps still deals with) when he started. In my day to day environment, the option to use force has arisen several times, and I have yet to take advantage of that option.

For me, it comes down to reminding myself that I'm here to help these people, and that whether or not they know it, they want my help. A LEO out in public is dealing with way more variables than I am, and the situation is obviously not as secure. Still, you've got a good head on your shoulders (assuming your brain jelly hasn't been thinned out due to trauma) and I think you fully understand the difference between life and death situations, and situations that warrant control.

As a police officer, the option to use the appropriate amount of force is certainly there, and I think it's understood by all parties involved. While there may be varying amounts of paperwork to go along with the varying amount of force, you're given the option in good faith that you'll make the right call.

I think most of the situations that we go through there while training are done so with an understanding of life or death consequences and often under more arduous circumstances. Back when the school had kids classes, dealing with less dangerous threats was something that considerable time was spent on. Nine year old yellow belts weren't allowed to play with knives, guns, and flying armbars...we had to learn how to dispel or control threats without excess violence. People who joined us later and moved straight into the advanced class got only a crash-course in minor violence before being introduced to "the fun stuff."

As you you close in on the eventuality of testing for black belt in the system, I'm voting that your potential change in career be reflected in your test. The idea that our art can be changed and modified to fit the individual is often applied to body type and other physical attributes. It goes further than that though. Beyond the core value of being able to defend one's self is to be able to apply it to your circumstances.

In Alex, and perhaps your case, the art should be adjusted to be applied to your job of law enforcement. For someone like this, instead of a black belt test being a brutal day-long exercise in death and destruction...it should be a brutal day-long exercise in shooting, use of force, controlling someone, identifying threats, and trying to get a statement from someone who's been hit with a "smoodie." (inside joke)

In short: change the purpose and focus of your training. I think the end result will look the same as what you're doing now, minus simulated dead bodies.

Thats not a bad idea. Im not sure if Sensei has a general idea of when a BB test will be happening. Regardless i need to be getting my butt in shape. There is a reason Alex started BJJ after he was a cop for a while. Ive been trying to grapple more to make the transition less jarring.

Side Note: We really should try to get Theobald down here sometime.

[MasterPain]

Also, we need to get you a training holster. EDC needs to be part of the training dynamic. You need a feel of the advantages and liabilities presented by it being there. I like to have a knife on my belt, so I can be ready for the mean streets of Willow Hill, it's the same idea.

When you have a gun and authoritah, most use of force will be against someone who is trying to get away from you. Any sane person is afraid of the gun and even more of the badge. Rarely would anyone actually attack you. If they do, you have to react in accordance to the seriousness of the threat, same as a civilian. Being the quintessential "reasonable person" the law likes to talk about, you should be fine.

[tallgeese]

There are some differences you'll have to make. However, it's important to note, that a deadly force threat is a deadly force threat. It does not matter if you shoot the bad guy with the knife who is attacking you or redirect the knife into his gullet. It's all about an objectively reasonable action. So, all of those skills will come in useful in the extreme situations.

That said, what we generally can't get by with is breaking people into pieces after they punch at us. There is a certain amount of truth to the fact that I've become infinitely more involved with grappling arts since joining the LE community. We deal with bringing people under control via means that don't become excessive. Grappling serves as a good medium to do this.

That said, my time spent in my core art was exceptional in preparing me for what I'd have to do on the job. Standing JJ has a great place in LE and, actually, a long history of driving control tactics in the profession. You'll find the transition easier than you think. Bear in mind, you'll be in 3 months worth of training centered around bringing you up to speed in regard to the job. You'll be so sick of UoF law that you'll never want to hear it again. This will get so engrained that it WILL effect your UoF decision making.

Don't think of it so much as reprogramming as a minor course correction. Don't get me wrong, you're right that it's an important course correction, but one that you'll easily adapt to.

At the end of the day, you've got a great skill set going into this. It crosses a broad range of ranges and situations, which is the reality you'll deal with. Now, as MP states, you'll need to start adding certain things to what you do. Firearms integration is one of them. Retention, deployment from close quarters, ect. is all a good starting point. Grapple with different holsters to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

Just think of re-purposing Bujin rather than reprogramming and you'll be fine. Good luck, keep us posted, and give me a shout when we can get together and hash all this out in person

[sensei8]

What's UoF?

[MasterPain]

What's UoF?

Use of Force

[sensei8]

What's UoF?

Use of Force

Aha...thanks MP!!

[ps1]

Due to developments in the last few months i know find myself on the verge of possibly starting a career in law enforcement.

Due to this i have found myself in somewhat of a dilemma with my martial arts training. For the last 4.5 years i have been trained in a highly combative system that has its roots in Kempo jiujitsu, goju-ryu, jeet kun do, krav maga and many other arts both grappling based and striking based. While training i often find myself using more force than a police officer would be allowed to use. For example, redirecting a knife and plunging it into an assailants midsection may land you in a heap of trouble, especially if you are a public servant such as a cop.

So my question is this, what would be the best ways to reprogram oneself who has a tendency while training to use "overkill" when dispatching an assailant to, to use less forcefull techniques that would be less frowned upon by a law enforcement agency.

You will be trained in a "use of force ladder." This will tell you exactly what level of force you can use and when you can use it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel or go into this thinking that you know what you're talking about. You may be educated, but you don't "know" what you can and can not do. Worry about which techniques to train once you've graduated the academy and are actually a LEO. Good luck!