Who's job is it to tap?

[pittbullJudoka]

I've often told people it's not my job to let go of a submission because my opponent doesn't want to tap. Let me explain this in my opinion now. I roll will people from black belt to beginer when doing jiu jitsu. The beginer I'll let go of a sub due to their lack of knowledge of when to tap. Now on the other hand someone who's been training for atleast a year they know their own body's limitations. Thus if the choke is set and tight or the armbar is locked, why do they refuse to tap? My opinion on this varies from person to person. (I train BJJ at another gym from where I teach)For example 0ne of my students refuses to tap due to the fact he's bigger and stronger than myself. He wants to say he was caught by a blue belt in BJJ with their best technique and they couldn't finish. I've had armbars on this person and I know for a fact there was not more room for the arm to extend and felt small pops before he tapped. Days later he would talk about his arm being sore from doing something else.( Never would admit he let the arm go too long). Today during my BJJ class I had a choke set deep and the guy went out. I'm talking he's snoring in my guard. I released the choke soon as I realized he's out. His bewildered look comfirmed to me he was out. He then states he passed out for a second. Sparring continued as normal except he had to tell everyone else he rolled with he passed out for a second. Really you passed out during the choke and not because of it. He then refused to roll with me anymore the rest of class. No big deal.

My question is why is it so hard for someone to get caught in a sub and not tap and reset and learn from their mistakes? I am by not means a ruthless person on the mat I feel bad if hurt someone during training. But if they've been training for awhile and refuse to tap I have no problem putting them to sleep or breaking a limb. I may feel bad about the broken limb after this happens but wouldn't it really be their fault? So again who's job is it to tap?

[Liver Punch]

It's your training partner/opponent's job. That's the end of it. Period.

Ok, not exactly. We're going to assume that because you're asking this question, you're not some sort of unsavory person. That's a good thing - congratulations. There are a few different situations that you'll probably run into in which people won't tap.

1. You're training with someone who doesn't know he's in trouble.

Let up once you know you have the submission and let him know what happened. He'll be happy that you didn't break any of his bones, and he can learn something from the situation.

2. You're training with someone who does know he's in trouble, but he's too "proud" to "give up."

If you know you're a half inch from breaking something, let the submission go and give yourself a mental pat on the back. Move to another position and lock something up. When I have to train with guys like this I either won't roll with them, or I just go into positions that aren't submissions but are wildly uncomfortable. If they're paying gym dues to suffer instead of learn, it doesn't bother me to oblige them.

3. You're in some sort of competition and the guy has no clue what's happening to him.

I once locked up a North-South Kimura on a guy at an annual karate tournament that had just added grappling that year. He knew he was in pain but had either forgotten how to tap, or thought his best option was to fight it. I had it locked, it was in position, and the next step was breaking something. I calmly looked up at the referee and informed him that I was about to cause some serious damage. The referee stopped it and awarded me the win without any complaints from my opponent. I believe that in major grappling tournaments, (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you're either awarded the win or some serious points for locking up a submission. At that point you've either won or majorly took the lead - let it go and move on to something else.

4. You're in a fight.

Tell him to stop resisting or you'll break his arm/leg/whatever. Repeat this statement. If you can't defend yourself without breaking something, I wouldn't hesitate doing so. You've done him a bigger favor than he was willing to do for you by giving him the option to solve things peacefully.

As for putting someone to sleep...anyone with a blue belt or darker should know enough to tap. I wouldn't hesitate to give them a nap.

[MasterPain]

It is likely prudent to mock their insecurity and question their manhood (or womanhood) BEFORE breaking anything.

[Dobbersky]

sometimes you win by loosing

[ps1]

Good for you for asking the question.

It would be easy to say it's the opponent's job. In a tournament or competition (especially if money is on the line) I would agree 100%.

However, it's important to remember the academy environment is just a laboratory. Injuring a partner will do 2 things: 1...it will ensure you have one less person to train with and 2...it will give you a bad rep around the school. Having a bad rep would ensure you have even fewer partners to train with.

Here's how I handle the situation:

Beginner I (white belt with 1 to 6 months of training)....doesn't know he's in bad shape...I let go and just continue the roll. Afterward I demonstrate and teach him the techniques so he recognizes it later.

Beginner II (white belt with more than 6 months of training)...recognizes trouble but won't submit...I start to release the move and allow him to escape slowly, then move to the next technique and get the submission. I'll make sure to point out the danger of refusing to tap and importance of letting the ego go in order to improve.

Intermediate I (blue belt level)...Tries to work a defense with poor timing....I counter the defense and move on to the next in the series. Instruct in proper timing after the roll.

Intermediate I (blue belt level)...Taps too much (yes it happens)...After they tap I instruct on the escape and when to use it. I encourage them to attempt to escape when working with people they trust won't hurt them.

Intermediate II (purple belts)...knows the trouble and has decent timing...With this level of practitioner I have to decide what to do before I go to the sub. Either I'm going to get it, or I'm giving them a chance to escape. This is because if the opportunity to escape arises, they WILL escape without help. Most of the time this is who I work various series of techniques against, catching them three to five moves down the line.

Advanced I (brown belts)...I am a mid level brown belt. We usually just go. We're smart enough to know when we're beaten and I've never been hurt while rolling a brown or black belt. We understand what each other are doing and prefer to just continue the flow anyway.

When it comes to chokes...put em to sleep. Not really a big deal in the long run.

[tallgeese]

I have a bit of a different view. I will say that accidents can and do happen, even with talented individuals. I get that. However, if you know that continued pressure will cause injury...to anyone, regardless if they should know better or not, then you flat out should not do it. Period.

Yes, it's his job to tap. But at the end of the day it's a training roll. There's no need to get anyone hurt IF YOU SEE IT COMING. Of course, I'm exempting the accidental injury. They do happen.

You can fill him in later, if it's worth your time, that he might want to tap. Or, if he's an obvious short timer, let it go. Who cares if he spams for weeks about you not tapping him on whatever internet outlet he chooses. Your jits got better for the encounter. And, no one got hurt.

I don't even push chokes that I'm certain will put people to sleep in training. Although I will hold these in comps. But that's just me. I think there's a decent argument for putting non-tappers to sleep, it's just not me.

It is his job to tap, but it's not your job to teach him a lesson. Yours is to improve your jiu jitsu. Rarely is this helped by creating an injury to someone else you see coming.

[pittbullJudoka]

I'm pretty sure the only way I'd really break something on someone would be in a competion where it's definately up to the opponent and reff's job to stop the action before that is the out come. And of course a self defense situation. Now the second question.

What if the non tapping individual is say around three years training and hoping to hold out long enough you bail on the position and then trys to go full bore as you're giving them a get out of jail free card?

[ps1]

What if the non tapping individual is say around three years training and hoping to hold out long enough you bail on the position and then trys to go full bore as you're giving them a get out of jail free card?

Never "bail" on a move as in completely stop attacking. Simply stop doing one move in order to transition to the next. Many times you can continue transitioning back and forth between just two moves. Eventually the guy realizes he's nothing but a "pinball" trapped in a never ending loop and loses the will to continue.

That's how you beat any intermediate or advanced guy; you must first dominate their desire to win, then their body is easy to defeat.

[Groinstrike]

It is likely prudent to mock their insecurity and question their manhood (or womanhood) BEFORE breaking anything.

Ill never forget Masterpain dragging a poor shlub around the mat with a bicep cutter as the guy is screaming in pain, but refusing to tap.

[MasterPain]

It is likely prudent to mock their insecurity and question their manhood (or womanhood) BEFORE breaking anything.

Ill never forget Masterpain dragging a poor shlub around the mat with a bicep cutter as the guy is screaming in pain, but refusing to tap.

After a couple minutes, I let go. It didn't get the point across, and there was no need to cause real injury. I think I later gave him the speech about how "real men don't tap", or go to the doctor for numb arms or urination problems. Real men die young from heart attacks or prostate cancer, cause they're tough.

Is that guy out of jail yet?