Art vs art?!?!?

[Martial_Artist]

Art vs art? Fighter vs fighter? Which is it? Comparing two arts...doesn't it really just boil down to the fighter? Yes, and no. It is neither one or the other.

 

Those of you who are familiar with my martial arts philosophy already know my stand on this topic. However, it has occurred to me to offer my voice on this particular subject.

 

I have seen it argued that art vs art is really quite irrelevant and that it plainly boils down to the fighter. While this mostly true I would offer a different persepective from which to view it.

 

I would argue that it is not purely fighter vs fighter and that the art they practice is completely irrelevant. I would argue that there is more to the equation that such a simple logical conclusion. Let me elaborate.

 

Fighter vs fighter. The art that they practice has no bearing on the outcome of the fight, right? Wrong.

 

Take two men (or women) and pit them against each other. You could say that the art they study meas nothing, but where do the tools that particular fighter uses come from? In other words, this fighter is fighting but where do his techniques come from? What source has this man drawn is martial arsenal?

 

If one man studies karate and another tae kwon do there is much more to it than simply which man is the better fighter. The karateka has all of fighting knowledge housed within karate. His whole fighting essence has been cultivated from karate. The same for the TKDist. They began martial arts perhaps with little or no prior knowledge. They brought to the table only what they innately possessed. The art they studied provided the rest to develop them into fighters. So, beyond their individual character traits, they are molds and products of their arts. From day one--when their minds were empty and devoid of martial knowledge--they have been trained in the philosophy, techniques, and way of life of their martial art. This effects who they are as a fighter. It also effects what they can do as a fighter. Each man when he fights fights purely from what his body knows to do, what it has been cultivated to do. For a karateka this is going to be different than for a TKDist. Because, both men have been cultivated with different tools and different environments. So, it is nearly impossible to say that their art has no bearing on the fighter. Because that fighter is nothing without his art.

 

When the karateka fights every movement he performs is taken from the weaponry that karate provides him. When the TKDist fights every movement he performs is taken from the weaponry that tae kwon do provides him. That is what he knows as a fighter. That is who he is as a martial artist. Take the art away and that person is nothing of the fighter he is with that art. For that art has made him the fighter he is today.

 

So, it is a fact of existence that not all things are created equal. Not every martial art is equal. Not every martial art is equally effective in combat. Some martial arts were strictly not developed, or were not further evolved to be effective in a fight. So, there are arts that are more effective for certain situations that others. There are arts that empower the student more fully to handle more situations.

 

So, if a student of a less-effective martial art fights a student of a more effective martial art, the fighter involved is minimal in consequence to the art involved. The fighter from the less-effective martial art is going to have less weapons that work in his arsenal to choose from. He could be the best innate fighter in existence, but each and every single one of his movements, techniques, strategies, and philosophies come from the less-effective art. He can only carry that so far before the art becomes too much of a burden and he loses the fight. On the other wise, the fighter from the more effective art has a greater arsenal of weapons that work to choose from. He does not have to rely so much on his innate ability as his art will carry him further. Conversely, his art can only carry him so far before his lack of innate skill buries his art and his incompetence as a fighter causes him to lose the match.

 

So, art vs art is incomplete without fighter vs fighter. You can say it all boils down to who's the better fighter, but for that fighter what art has cultivated him to be that fighter? He would not be the fighter he is if it wasn't for the art he studies.

 

ps

 

I, personally, have a different philosophy on the role of style and art, and the effect they have on the martial artist. Portions of this philosophy can be found in my posts under Combative Martial Arts, "The Martial Arts".

[Jade_Lotus]

First of all.. Well said Martial Artist! They both play a role, however I believe that the art plays more a role than the fighter...for the simple reasons stated above, from where does the fighter get his means of fighting??? From the art he studies..if you take a person who has studed Olympic TKD, and art designed purely for tournament, under rules and restrictions, and he is the most innate, skilled and most efficient olympic TKDist out there, and he were forced to enter into combat with a person who has studied an effective art designed purely for street combat and survival...I don't care how innate the Olympic TKDist is...his tools simply don't provide with the means in which to handle true unexpected combat. Fighters have their will, their burning heart..the soul and will of a fighter are unconquerable. A true fighting spirit pushes the fighter to points ubearable..."though his body says stop, his spirit cries NEVER!" This is the spirit of a fighter. However, if this will, this spirit and soul doesn't have the proper means in which to accomodate it, then this spirit, will die with the fighter. I don't care how much a patriot burns with loyalty and patriotism for his country, he can't jump in a bi-plane and fight and win against an enemy who is flying a modern fighter jet...it just doesn't happen...they are the same medium of fighting...air to air combat, but one is far superior to the other. Even if the bi-plane pilot is the best pilot known to man. This is just an example, but can be applied to fighting. A person can be the most innate fighter on Earth, but if his means of fighting are less effective, then it will catch up with him, and he will lose. So, it is both, the art and the fighter, but the art is far more important.

 

Of course all this is just my opinion.

[sk0t]

You guys are nuts...

 

Scott knows Kung Fu

 

Jim knows TKD

 

Scott sucks at Kung Fu

 

Jim is good at TKD...

 

does style mean anything? NO!

 

It is the fighter! Style doesnt mean anything

 

Jim doesnt know anything...but can throw a punch,

 

Pete knows TKD, but sucks

 

Jim whoops Scott with a punch, that pete couldnt block cause he sucks...

 

Did Jims art lose it for him or did Jim lose it for himself...

 

DO YOU GUYS JUST TYPE TO TYPE?

[Martial_Artist]

Are you for real?

 

Scott sucks at kungfu. Where did Scott learn to throw his punch? If he sucks at his art, then obviously he sucks as well with his punch.

 

Jim knows TKD. Jim is good at TKD, (You said so yourself) So if Jim is really all this good at TKD then he is going to know how to use his body better than Scott, because Scott sucks(like you said) and Jim is good. So Scott loses. The skill of the fighter in his art won. If neither of them had training, then the skill and experience of the fighter wins out. If they have formal training its going to be who has the better training.

 

It's the fighter....I've heard it all before Thug. The fighter plays a good role in fighting, but the fighter can only do as well as he has been trained.

 

If you're a great athlete, good co-ordination, but don't know jack about the mechanics of fighting, how well do you think you'll do against someone mediocre in athletic ability, but extremely gifted in the mechanics of fighting? You'll more than likely get your butt handed to you, and spend the rest of the day wondering why being the better fighter didn't win you out.

 

The fighter can only do as much as his body has been conditioned to do. The body can only do what it has been conditioned to do. The mind can only perform as it has been cultivated to do. Understand that? Pretty simple, right? Basic scientific knowledge of how the body works, how the mind controls the body when it comes to how it performs will direct you to the same conclusion. The greatest person in the world can only do as much as the tools he has before him.

 

If you were the greatest carpenter on earth and were pitted in a contest against some mediocre carpenter to carve a relief out of wood. How well would you do if all you had to do that with was a plastic spoon? You'd probably lose the contest.

 

You know what, I must be nuts. Einstein was called nuts by "experts" in the field. You know it can't possibly be that I'm right, it MUST be that I'm nuts.

 

DO YOU TYPE JUST TO TYPE? You've answered the question then.

[Jack]

I see Martial_Artist's point here and I would have to say that I agree.

[Ti-Kwon-Leap]

There are so many variables that make up any two fighters.

 

Some people are naturally more gifted when it comes to applying whatever techniques they learn in any given style.

 

Are some styles more geared towards streetfighting? Yes!

 

Are some fighters able to overcome and adapt their art despite it's weaknesses? Definately!

 

Could mental toughness tip the scales and allow the man from the weaker art to prevail? I believe so.

 

Should a person interested in effective self defense follow a single style and expect it to work universally in a confrontation???

 

Don't make me laugh.

 

The best way to learn to fight is to fight.

 

The best way to learn about how your art compares to others is to learn other arts or at least learn about, watch and examine other arts. I happen to be studying TKD at this point in my life.

 

If I did not have the benefit of being involved in several very different disciplines, I believe that I would be ill equipped to use any single art in a situation against an opponent who is versed in several styles.

 

I believe that to be an effective fighter one must find a blend of styles, techniques, strategies and awareness that optimizes that which works best for him/her.

 

Every once in a while our instructor has us do an exercise where the opponents hold the belt of the other and the object is to trip/flip/or otherwise put the opponent on the mat.

 

I win against huge guys, small guys, regardless of rank. (so far)

 

This is because of wrestling, aikido, judo and just plain street experience as well as an instinct for "knowing people".

 

I do not believe that I would fare half as well without the myriad experiences that have shaped me.

 

It's never as simple as "art VS art" or "fighter VS fighter" but it is the culmination of that which is inherent+that which is learned+that which is properly applied at the proper moment.

 

I have seen accomplished martial artists beaten by opponents with practically no technique because of a lack of seriousness.

 

I am basically agreeing with Martial_Artist but i'm sure he realizes that... Heh.

[Kensai]

I agree Ti-Kwon-Leap.

 

Combat is constantly changing and evolving, the out come can never be realistically pre judged simply due to style.

 

Take Care

[shotochem]

Then of course there is also the random chaos factor......

 

The lucky shot, the element of suprise, size of the brute attacking,

 

the total attitude and visciousness of the combatant. IMO the more bloodthirsty of the two has the advantage. All skills being equal I belive the bigger, stronger nastier fighter would win most of the time.

[inyctrotter]

I understand what everybody is saying but usualy in this fourm someone would have to say it depends on the fighter. but this isnt Fighter Vs. Fighter, its Art. Vs. Art.

[JerryLove]

Anyone here who studies under an instuctor and believes that art doesn't matter is a hypocrite.

 

If art A is never benifical over art B (regardless of which arts they are) then any art at all must be presumed useless.

 

Also, if it were soly an issue of "fighter vs fighter", we would see no commonality in successful fighters related to art... we do.

 

Everything matters. The art matters, the skill level matters, the size matters, the speed matters, the timing matters, the desire to win matters, the luck matters, the day of the week and phase of the moon matter. And they all matter in ways far to complex to boil down to a short formula.

 

This should be obvious.