Rule Dependant Venues

[sensei8]

While MMA is a mainstay, and has become the rage-of-the-page all over the world. MMA came to its popular as it basks in the limelight of venues such as the UFC and Strikeforce.

Those vehicle types have made many martial artists boast out loud and proud that the other styles of the martial arts are inferior to BJJ and the like based on what's been seen in the many mma venues.

As a karateka, I am grouped with being an inferior martial artist because, according to the experts of MMA, karate, for the most, is inferior to MMA/BJJ.

I'm aware that MMA has many karatekas that have done quite well for themselves in the octagon, but that, for the most part, doesn't change the minds of those MMA practitioners.

Let's look at UFC rules/regulations...

The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts and may result in penalties, at the discretion of the referee, if committed:

 

>Butting with the head

 

>Eye gouging of any kind

 

>Biting

 

>Spitting at an opponent

 

>Hair pulling

 

>Fish hooking

 

>Groin attacks of any kind

 

>Putting a finger into any orifice or any cut or laceration of an opponent

 

>Small joint manipulation

 

>Striking downward using the point of the elbow

 

>Striking to the spine or the back of the head

 

>Kicking to the kidney with a heel

 

>Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea

 

>Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh

 

>Grabbing the clavicle

 

>Kicking the head of a grounded opponent

 

>Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent

 

>Stomping a grounded opponent

Rules are in place for the protection of the fighters. This is don't dispute. What I do dispute is when the masses say that the MMA/BJJ and the like are superior to all other styles of the martial arts.

That's unfair. It's unfair because the masses are basing their assumption(s) away from the fact that there are rules.

Each of those listed above, are weapons of any Shindokan karateka, and with many other styles of the MA.

[Dobbersky]

Why is this as the rules point in the favour of the BJJ player.

But the Karateka does not help the situation or at least the Karateka shown on the BJJ versus Karate videos on Youtube where the karateka looks more like a 7th Kyu than someone worthy of the Black Belt around his waist. Most Karate schools teach Non or Semi contact sparring and have no consideration to an opponent wanting to take them to the ground etc! They tend to go into survival mode, and all their training goes out of the window!

Now there are many Karate based fighters in UFC but for some reason they are introduced as Mixed Martial Artists even though they only cross train in something else like Judo or Wrestling to improve their Grappling skills ; BUT they ALWAYS say BJJ even though the fighter cross trains in Boxing / Kickboxing to improve their striking skills

[MasterPain]

There seems to be an either/or mentality among martial artists when it comes to live training and illegal technique. I've always maintained that this is just silly. You can't allow this stuff competitively, but it can be trained by sensible people with protective gear and pulled strikes.

But I don't think there is much substitute for BJJ. Maybe Sambo or Judo. Cheating can help in a ground fight with someone a little better than you, but if they really outclass you, they will have destroyed you before you could get a chance to dig into their eye sockets.

[Dobbersky]

There seems to be an either/or mentality among martial artists when it comes to live training and illegal technique. I've always maintained that this is just silly. You can't allow this stuff competitively, but it can be trained by sensible people with protective gear and pulled strikes.

But I don't think there is much substitute for BJJ. Maybe Sambo or Judo. Cheating can help in a ground fight with someone a little better than you, but if they really outclass you, they will have destroyed you before you could get a chance to dig into their eye sockets.

I would dare say that Daido Juku fighters when THEY make the move over to UFC and other Caged events I am sure this will be the next "best" thing for MMA giving all the other "styles" a run for their money!

[sensei8]

Why is this as the rules point in the favour of the BJJ player.

But the Karateka does not help the situation or at least the Karateka shown on the BJJ versus Karate videos on Youtube where the karateka looks more like a 7th Kyu than someone worthy of the Black Belt around his waist. Most Karate schools teach Non or Semi contact sparring and have no consideration to an opponent wanting to take them to the ground etc! They tend to go into survival mode, and all their training goes out of the window!

Now there are many Karate based fighters in UFC but for some reason they are introduced as Mixed Martial Artists even though they only cross train in something else like Judo or Wrestling to improve their Grappling skills ; BUT they ALWAYS say BJJ even though the fighter cross trains in Boxing / Kickboxing to improve their striking skills

Solid post!!

Rules favor everyone to a point. Rules have there share of loop-holes no matter the venue.

I respect every MMA fighter and every BJJ fighter because of their static liveliness. I hate the methodology that a lot of karate schools train/teach their students when kumite is concerned. And you're absolutely correct...many karatekas when they find themselves in a clinch/tackle, they don't fight back. No, they succumb and accept the attack, thus they're in a survival mode, and in that, they hang on for the ride to the ground.

Many karateka's need to stay on their feet or they're in a world of trouble right from the clinch/tackle.

I don't have a problem with karateka's being introduced as MMA fighters because in that venue...THEY ARE JUST THAT, imho. Some, like Lyoto Machida try to stay true to their core style, but, again imho, they are MMA fighters, and labels don't really do anything for me; its the essence of their abilities and what they do with them that does something for me. Lyoto mixes up well in the octagon as a fighter, and it's not important to me that his core is Shotokan. Lyoto strikes more than he uses submissions and more than he utilizes takedowns. Look at Lyoto's background...he's described as a MMAist, and I'm fine with that.

Improving ones betterment in their MA techniques is vitally important, otherwise, motions are wasted, imho.

It's the way karatekas, in general, are lumped in together in any of the various media's, as inferior because of the limited success inside any octagon, and when one says "...all karate is inferior because...", I'm a karateka who feels solid across the board; that's how Shindokan trains us and it's how my Dai-Soke taught us/me. Greg, within the Shindokan circles, is the only karateka that I can mix it up with because Shindokan teaches in that static liveliness that allows Greg and I to try to kill each other, and then after, we lick our wounds. That's the only kumite I love....try to kill me...but I'm going to get a turn!

[sensei8]

There seems to be an either/or mentality among martial artists when it comes to live training and illegal technique. I've always maintained that this is just silly. You can't allow this stuff competitively, but it can be trained by sensible people with protective gear and pulled strikes.

But I don't think there is much substitute for BJJ. Maybe Sambo or Judo. Cheating can help in a ground fight with someone a little better than you, but if they really outclass you, they will have destroyed you before you could get a chance to dig into their eye sockets.

Solid post!!

Again, rules and the like are there for the safety sake of the fighters and I know that they can't go all out because it is, after all, a competition and it's not a life and death situation, and yes, that would be silly to think otherwise.

Again, that's why I've maintained that if any MAist isn't effective on the ground, then stay standing or run away fast. You're dead on when you say that digging into ones eye socket isn't a consideration if you're on the ground and you know that you shouldn't be prostrated. Many styles of the MA succumb to attacks/clinch/tackle because they've not even a minimum of an idea of what they need to do when they get there.

Thank the lord that Shindokan teaches a lot, and I mean tons of ground work/grappling. I love standing, but I love rolling much much more.

[ps1]

Regarding Rules: I would point to the first few UFC events when there were none. The outcomes speak for themselves. Here's a great example:

I do not believe MMA proved BJJ to be the most effective mode of combat. I believe it proved that, if you have a weakness in any phase of combat (free movement, clinch, or ground), it can be exposed. When MMA started, that weakness just happened to be the ground and the Gracie family capitalized very well.

I could just as fairly look at typical sparring rules and say why training that way won't work on the street. But that's not its purpose, and I understand that.

Regarding Attitude of BJJers: I would not let the postings of a few "this vs that" videos be the voice of all who study bjj. We also have high level black belt practitioners such as Chuck Norris and Dan Inosanto! Not everyone is closed minded.

In the end, i feel the arrogance is on both sides. Afterall, years before BJJ hit American shores, we had karateka talking about how boxing is ineffective also. I'm sure many of you remember the days when people would ponder that scenario. Traditional Karateka first talked about how BJJ was too new and not at all traditional. The first Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school was opened in 1925. Heck...that's well before several karate systems commonly practiced today.

As always ends up being the case, it comes down to the practitioner. The harder they are willing to train, the better a representative of their art they will be.

[sensei8]

Solid post ps1!!

UFC in its infancy...those were the good ole' days.

The attitudes who've supported the theirs-is-all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips hadn't been from just the few. No, I've been reading/hearing/watching this attitude for many years.

I try to just shake my head in dismay...and I'm dong so much better in shrugging it off.

[tallgeese]

Right, rules have to exist to keep competitors safe.

That said, may of the rules you list sensei8 either weren't in effect early in the UFC's or were never in effect for Pride, where stomping downed opponents was not only legal but, apparently by the frequency of it, encouraged. Despite these rules (or lack thereof) grappling arts and training methods that were less than traditional proved to be necessary to press competitive levels forward.

As to rules favoring grapplers, I don't think this is the case anymore. The refs are now encouraged to get people up when there is a lull in action. This makes it harder for grapplers to "cook" strikers and wear them down. Not to mention it means that grapplers are constantly getting stood up and put back into their opponents potential strength range.

I'm not saying that the tactics outside those rules are ineffective, just that they are not the great equalizer that they are often touted as. For instance in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFFsWF3FoLI

you can see at about :51 seconds the cop on the bottom attempt to eye gouge the attacker on top and then fish hook him. Two often touted "there are no rules on the street" tactics. In both cases they are ineffective and defeated by the attacker simply turning his head. Again, I'll never say these tactics won't work, but that they are secondary to learning good positional grappling.

Also, here are the thoughts of Draculino, a highly respected BJJ or illegal strikes, he makes some valid points:

you'll notice during all of this his exceptional positional control that prevents much of the effectiveness of this particular "illegal" attack.

So, I guess my point in summary is that- yes, mma makes certain techniques illegal for safety. However, this does not invalidate what we've learned as a result of mma competition.

Yes, several karateka have made successful transitions to mma. Machida is the most often touted. It has obviously influenced the way he fights. He's done very well. But again, we look at what we've learned from the competition of mma. He's not tearing it up as a karateka alone. He's also a high level grappler who's trained with some serious black belts. And if you watch footage of him training, he's training like a prize fighter, not your average karate practitioner.

This is one of those things that goes back to the attitude you often encounter with BJJers in regard to other arts. There is a real lack of time for anything theoretical in nature that can't be shown, proven to work, on the mat. Kata is about a theoretical as it gets, hence the lack of seriousness given in by a lot of BJJ guys. There is a lot more credence given to knockdown styles and such because you can see that what they are doing works. It's a perception and a mindset and it comes from the fact that there is nothing in BJJ that is theoretical. You can either do it on the mat or you can't. There is no maybe about the functionality of a tool.

MMA has inherited this from it's ties to BJJ and Vale Tudo.

Renzo Gracie has a great section in his book "Mastering Jiu Jitsu" that discusses this. It's well worth the read. His thesis is that people who train and rely on tools that are theoretical, even if those tactics are highly traumatizing to another person, are behind the 8 ball compared to the martial artist who rely on tactics that might not be AS damaging but CAN be practiced full speed and resistance.

Now, progressive minded martial artist can work around this to a degree based on modern equipment. But we'll never entirely overcome this until we can all rip up realistic robot ukes. Part of it is psychological as well. Largely, humans aren't wired to kill and mutilate one another. It's actually harder to do this than one would think.

Yes, we all talk a good game, but research shows that when push comes to shove, even in life threatening situations, it's hard for the average human to kill or maim another. Look at the non-firing rates of soldiers research done thru WW II to present. We, as a warrior community led largely in this area by the military, have figured out how to get around this. But it's still an issue. Especially for the civilian martial artist who's NOT training to tear apart a human being realistically.

Again, I'm not over-bashing those tactics, just saying that there's a lot to the subject that gets over looked most of the time.

Lastly, yes, there is ego on both sides. However, mma has shown us some great lessons on training, cross training, and mindset. We limit ourselves if we don't learn from it and adapt.

[ps1]

Solid post ps1!!

UFC in its infancy...those were the good ole' days.

The attitudes who've supported the theirs-is-all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips hadn't been from just the few. No, I've been reading/hearing/watching this attitude for many years.

I try to just shake my head in dismay...and I'm dong so much better in shrugging it off.

Thanks.

Regarding the bold print:

I post BJJ videos on youtube. I get a ton of comments. The vast majority of the comments are about how the move won't work in multiple attacker scenarios! That would be a valid point if my video was at all geared toward self defense or multiple attackers. But they are clearly videos geared toward defeating/countering other BJJ techniques. Yet these guys want to tell me that karate or boxing or martial art x will beat this.

All I can think is how foolish these people are. I've never seen a BJJ practitioner demonstrate a ground move and say it's great for multiple attackers. Heck, Royler Gracie himself told a guy "jiu-jitsu doesn't work magic" in response to a ridiculous situational question.

Further, Rickson Gracie is quoted as saying, "Competition in jiu-jitsu is only about 30% of the art. Without learning defensive striking, self defense, and a combat guard, you have not learned jiu-jitsu!"

So, just like other arts, what is seen in competition is not the entire art. So for people to draw judgement based on competition is quite unfair.

As i said before, the arrogance is on both sides. Quite frankly, any great proponent of an art will tell you what the art's weaknesses are and how to fill in those gaps. Then they will do that to the best of their ability.