Poor bunkai

[Ueshirokarate]

Since you quoted me it seemed like you were directing it me, so I apologize for the misinterpretation. I agree that you can't just know what a person behind you is doing and spin around to block them, but I do have to slightly disagree with you on the idea that there is no such thing as a "block" in karate--I think that there can be, but it's not usually the most effective thing you can do.

When coworkers/friends/family/my wife jokingly punch at me I will usually block it, and that's all--either a palm block, a swim block or a backhand block, typically--which works out just fine because I don't get hit and they don't get hurt. If someone were attacking me, those reactions would probably save me from getting hit once or twice, but blocking is not the most efficient use of my energy when it comes to self defense because it does nothing to end the threat unless I manage to block so hard that they hurt themselves and give up, lol. I would much rather deflect an attack while countering than simply block and wait my turn to attack the attacker.

No apologies necessary. It was me who made you believe that the way I wrote it, so I apologize to you.

I don't really consider rough-housing, joking, etc "karate". My point about "blocks" is that they are not designed by the karate gods to be "blocks". These are techniques that are either striking at something, deflecting the opponent's hit out of the way to allow you to hit a soft target, or give you the opportunity to grab your opponent. A chest block can easily trap your opponents arm, strike the inside of it or worse. A head block can deliver a strike with your fist or elbow, or merely open the door for you to grab an arm. It is a big mistake to think of these techniques as "blocks" (as opposed to "uke" techniques) and many people do.

[Wastelander]

Since you quoted me it seemed like you were directing it me, so I apologize for the misinterpretation. I agree that you can't just know what a person behind you is doing and spin around to block them, but I do have to slightly disagree with you on the idea that there is no such thing as a "block" in karate--I think that there can be, but it's not usually the most effective thing you can do.

When coworkers/friends/family/my wife jokingly punch at me I will usually block it, and that's all--either a palm block, a swim block or a backhand block, typically--which works out just fine because I don't get hit and they don't get hurt. If someone were attacking me, those reactions would probably save me from getting hit once or twice, but blocking is not the most efficient use of my energy when it comes to self defense because it does nothing to end the threat unless I manage to block so hard that they hurt themselves and give up, lol. I would much rather deflect an attack while countering than simply block and wait my turn to attack the attacker.

No apologies necessary. It was me who made you believe that the way I wrote it, so I apologize to you.

I don't really consider rough-housing, joking, etc "karate". My point about "blocks" is that they are not designed by the karate gods to be "blocks". These are techniques that are either striking at something, deflecting the opponent's hit out of the way to allow you to hit a soft target, or give you the opportunity to grab your opponent. A chest block can easily trap your opponents arm, strike the inside of it or worse. A head block can deliver a strike with your fist or elbow, or merely open the door for you to grab an arm. It is a big mistake to think of these techniques as "blocks" (as opposed to "uke" techniques) and many people do.

No problem--that sort of thing can happen pretty easily over the internet.

I would agree that rough-housing/joking aren't really "karate" but the blocking response still comes from my training. I agree that what are generally called "blocks" are actually techniques for receiving an attack in some way, as you describe, but I suppose I'm one of those weird people who isn't that concerned with the semantics--deflecting or brushing an attack aside, jamming an attack or covering up are all still "blocking" to me even though they technically aren't . I also don't care too much if you call it a middle block or high block even when you are using it to strike or apply a joint lock or choke. We needed to have something to call a motion that does a large number of things, so we had to pick something and it ended up being "block", probably because people learned block-punch-kick omote bunkai for so long and didn't know it as anything other than a block and when ura bunkai opened up we just kept the name. It would be kind of awkward to start calling them something like "middle receiving technique" and it seems like too much work to specifically name them differently for every application when the motion is the same.

[ShoriKid]

Not Mickey Mouse Ueshiro, Spiderman! Mickey's bunkai is tight, I was training with him a couple of weeks back. Or so the story goes from my kid's class after I came back from vacation.

Spiderman bunkai is from Iain Abernethy. In a video clip where he refers to knowing the attacker is coming from behind and you turn into them as Spiderman bunkai, because your spider senses must be tingling to turn and block an attack you couldn't have seen coming.

And here

you go.

Excellent find! Good video too (one of the best from him I have seen, as they are usually just teases for his DVDs).

Thanks

I've got a couple of his videos as well, good stuff all around. If you check his youtube channel Mr. Abernethy has a pretty good set of short clips of application. Definitely worth your time Ueshiro.

[ShoriKid]

No problem--that sort of thing can happen pretty easily over the internet.

I would agree that rough-housing/joking aren't really "karate" but the blocking response still comes from my training. I agree that what are generally called "blocks" are actually techniques for receiving an attack in some way, as you describe, but I suppose I'm one of those weird people who isn't that concerned with the semantics--deflecting or brushing an attack aside, jamming an attack or covering up are all still "blocking" to me even though they technically aren't . I also don't care too much if you call it a middle block or high block even when you are using it to strike or apply a joint lock or choke. We needed to have something to call a motion that does a large number of things, so we had to pick something and it ended up being "block", probably because people learned block-punch-kick omote bunkai for so long and didn't know it as anything other than a block and when ura bunkai opened up we just kept the name. It would be kind of awkward to start calling them something like "middle receiving technique" and it seems like too much work to specifically name them differently for every application when the motion is the same.

Wastelander,

I think the only trouble that you run into, and I think what Ueshiro is pointing out, is when people get fixed on it being a block because it's called a "block". And when you give it that name people's minds tend to get stuck on that term and fixate on just making it do one thing. Ever try to explain to someone that stepping into zenkutsu and throwing a reverse punch with the formal chamber is a very nice throwing technique? Their mind is stuck on a punch.

[Ueshirokarate]

No problem--that sort of thing can happen pretty easily over the internet.

I would agree that rough-housing/joking aren't really "karate" but the blocking response still comes from my training. I agree that what are generally called "blocks" are actually techniques for receiving an attack in some way, as you describe, but I suppose I'm one of those weird people who isn't that concerned with the semantics--deflecting or brushing an attack aside, jamming an attack or covering up are all still "blocking" to me even though they technically aren't . I also don't care too much if you call it a middle block or high block even when you are using it to strike or apply a joint lock or choke. We needed to have something to call a motion that does a large number of things, so we had to pick something and it ended up being "block", probably because people learned block-punch-kick omote bunkai for so long and didn't know it as anything other than a block and when ura bunkai opened up we just kept the name. It would be kind of awkward to start calling them something like "middle receiving technique" and it seems like too much work to specifically name them differently for every application when the motion is the same.

Wastelander,

I think the only trouble that you run into, and I think what Ueshiro is pointing out, is when people get fixed on it being a block because it's called a "block". And when you give it that name people's minds tend to get stuck on that term and fixate on just making it do one thing. Ever try to explain to someone that stepping into zenkutsu and throwing a reverse punch with the formal chamber is a very nice throwing technique? Their mind is stuck on a punch.

Exactly right. By the way, there is so much grappling and throwing in our system of katas, that goes ignored by so many Matsubayashi practitioners.

Lastly, I thought I had watched all of Iain's videos. Obviously I missed some and I appreciate your linking it.

Hey what happened to that other thread with short poles and Chinese influence?

[MasterPain]

Hey what happened to that other thread with short poles and Chinese influence?

My guess is that it will return, and Patrick will be prematurely grey.

[sojobo]

Hey what happened to that other thread with short poles and Chinese influence?

My guess is that it will return, and Patrick will be prematurely grey.

hehe,

And I'm guessing with Cayuga-karate's rather verbose posts - it's gonna be a while.

Sojobo

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, i've always had issues with techniques being linguistically classified. I try to deconstruct the classifications when i'm showing techniques and break down movements into the simplest forms to deal with it, but my ability to understand what to do when I hear compound movements named suffers.