Poor bunkai

[Ueshirokarate]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

I would suggest that you read the book "The Way of Kata" by Lawrence Kane. It is just excellent. Probably the best book on form based karate ever written.

[Wastelander]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

Oyata Sensei used to have my instructor run Naihanchi with turns back when he did Ryukyu Kempo--every time he did a step over his own foot he pivoted all the way around--which I think works great for working techniques against attacks/grabs from the rear. I tend to agree with you that turns all the way around can be for defending against attackers that come up behind you, but sometimes they can also be throws or joint locks--there's just all kinds of fun stuff in kata!

[Ueshirokarate]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

Oyata Sensei used to have my instructor run Naihanchi with turns back when he did Ryukyu Kempo--every time he did a step over his own foot he pivoted all the way around--which I think works great for working techniques against attacks/grabs from the rear. I tend to agree with you that turns all the way around can be for defending against attackers that come up behind you, but sometimes they can also be throws or joint locks--there's just all kinds of fun stuff in kata!

Like all aspects of kata, they are techniques of body movement put in there to give your body muscle memory of fighting techniques that work in given situations. Try this out, do a body turn while you are holding an uke from the front. Kata is not designed to illustrate fighting against multiple opponents. To think multiple opponents in bunkai, is Mickey Mouse bunkai stuff in my opinion.

[ShoriKid]

Not Mickey Mouse Ueshiro, Spiderman! Mickey's bunkai is tight, I was training with him a couple of weeks back. Or so the story goes from my kid's class after I came back from vacation.

Spiderman bunkai is from Iain Abernethy. In a video clip where he refers to knowing the attacker is coming from behind and you turn into them as Spiderman bunkai, because your spider senses must be tingling to turn and block an attack you couldn't have seen coming.

And here

you go.

[Ueshirokarate]

Not Mickey Mouse Ueshiro, Spiderman! Mickey's bunkai is tight, I was training with him a couple of weeks back. Or so the story goes from my kid's class after I came back from vacation.

Spiderman bunkai is from Iain Abernethy. In a video clip where he refers to knowing the attacker is coming from behind and you turn into them as Spiderman bunkai, because your spider senses must be tingling to turn and block an attack you couldn't have seen coming.

And here

you go.

Excellent find! Good video too (one of the best from him I have seen, as they are usually just teases for his DVDs).

Thanks

[shadowspawn]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

Oyata Sensei used to have my instructor run Naihanchi with turns back when he did Ryukyu Kempo--every time he did a step over his own foot he pivoted all the way around--which I think works great for working techniques against attacks/grabs from the rear. I tend to agree with you that turns all the way around can be for defending against attackers that come up behind you, but sometimes they can also be throws or joint locks--there's just all kinds of fun stuff in kata!

Like all aspects of kata, they are techniques of body movement put in there to give your body muscle memory of fighting techniques that work in given situations. Try this out, do a body turn while you are holding an uke from the front. Kata is not designed to illustrate fighting against multiple opponents. To think multiple opponents in bunkai, is Mickey Mouse bunkai stuff in my opinion.

I would disagree to some extent here. Admittedly, you won't be fighting 10 guys at once or anything, but the idea of two or even, perhaps, three assailants coming at you doesn't seem entirely far fetched. Else how would you explain the opening movements of ju roku? Surely you wouldn't step off to the side and pull both your arms backwards before striking would you? My bunkai is a bear hug attempt from the rear. Before they can lock it in, you step off to the side to pull them off balance, and both arms come back with the intent of one of them making contact. What's more is that while Japanese martial arts (or at least sword martial arts) tend to focus on a singular opponent, Chinese martial arts (or at least their sword martial arts) have a tendency to branch out and sometimes include multiple opponents. As Karate was more influenced by Chinese martial arts than Japanese martial arts, it would make sense that it would include at least some instances of multiple attackers. Just my take on that.

[chrisw08]

It's even worse if you're trying to find applications for Taekwondo forms, you're lucky to find a single video on it. There just aren't a lot of people in Korean styles interested in actually understanding forms. The next best option is to look at Shotokan bunkai, since the forms are so similar. Of course, you do run into a lot of the very simplistic, unrealistic bunkai.

I think the "fighting eight men" approach to demonstrating bunkai gives people the wrong impression. Kata don't teach you to fight eight people at once. It teaches you to fight one person in a number of different ways. You turn so you don't run into the wall, not to face a new opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz2sS8MwLh8

I found these guys on youtube, their bunkai is by far the best I have seen. Very detailed and realistic. They also show multiple applications for each technique.

yes ive seen this before they show the applications very well

[Wastelander]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

Oyata Sensei used to have my instructor run Naihanchi with turns back when he did Ryukyu Kempo--every time he did a step over his own foot he pivoted all the way around--which I think works great for working techniques against attacks/grabs from the rear. I tend to agree with you that turns all the way around can be for defending against attackers that come up behind you, but sometimes they can also be throws or joint locks--there's just all kinds of fun stuff in kata!

Like all aspects of kata, they are techniques of body movement put in there to give your body muscle memory of fighting techniques that work in given situations. Try this out, do a body turn while you are holding an uke from the front. Kata is not designed to illustrate fighting against multiple opponents. To think multiple opponents in bunkai, is Mickey Mouse bunkai stuff in my opinion.

I never said bunkai was for fighting multiple opponents, I said "attacks/grabs from the rear". People have most certainly been documented to come up and hit you in the head from behind, or grab your shoulder to turn you around and punch you, or grab your arms to isolate them if there DOES happen to be another person that they are working with to attack you. Sure, you will probably get hit before you know they are there if you are attacked from behind, but at least if you have built some muscle memory for responding to being attacked from behind you might be able to initiate some sort of defensive response other than freezing up and letting yourself get beat on. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not the "kata is for fighting eight guys at a time" thing.

[Ueshirokarate]

I was always under the impression that the turning was merely a simulation for an attack from the rear. ie.

You turn and do techniques A and B: That is one scenario where opponent approaches from left.

You do a 180 and do techniques A, C, and B: That is another scenario where opponent approaches from rear.

You turn and do Technique A and technique D 3 times: That is 2 scenarios with the first being an attack from the left and another an attack from the front.

There are some kata that do string together though so I'm not saying that every time you turn it's a different scenario. Just that I feel any one kata was meant more to prepare you for as many different scenarios as possible by meshing together a web of ippon kumite-like drills into one continuous flow of movement. In a sense, all you would need is one kata mastered and you should be able to defend yourself.

Oyata Sensei used to have my instructor run Naihanchi with turns back when he did Ryukyu Kempo--every time he did a step over his own foot he pivoted all the way around--which I think works great for working techniques against attacks/grabs from the rear. I tend to agree with you that turns all the way around can be for defending against attackers that come up behind you, but sometimes they can also be throws or joint locks--there's just all kinds of fun stuff in kata!

Like all aspects of kata, they are techniques of body movement put in there to give your body muscle memory of fighting techniques that work in given situations. Try this out, do a body turn while you are holding an uke from the front. Kata is not designed to illustrate fighting against multiple opponents. To think multiple opponents in bunkai, is Mickey Mouse bunkai stuff in my opinion.

I never said bunkai was for fighting multiple opponents, I said "attacks/grabs from the rear". People have most certainly been documented to come up and hit you in the head from behind, or grab your shoulder to turn you around and punch you, or grab your arms to isolate them if there DOES happen to be another person that they are working with to attack you. Sure, you will probably get hit before you know they are there if you are attacked from behind, but at least if you have built some muscle memory for responding to being attacked from behind you might be able to initiate some sort of defensive response other than freezing up and letting yourself get beat on. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, not the "kata is for fighting eight guys at a time" thing.

I was making a general comment, not directed at you. There are many, many karateka who mistakenly think multiple opponents. Please check out the video Shorikid posted, you'll see what I am talking about:

You can't do a reverse turn "down block" into someone just behind you or in front of you for that matter. Such a move is totally ineffective for "blocking" a kick. But do try such a move when you hold onto the guy in front of you. Also please remember that "uke" means to receive. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "block" in karate.

[Wastelander]

I was making a general comment, not directed at you. There are many, many karateka who mistakenly think multiple opponents. Please check out the video Shorikid posted, you'll see what I am talking about:

You can't do a reverse turn "down block" into someone just behind you or in front of you for that matter. Such a move is totally ineffective for "blocking" a kick. But do try such a move when you hold onto the guy in front of you. Also please remember that "uke" means to receive. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "block" in karate.

Since you quoted me it seemed like you were directing it me, so I apologize for the misinterpretation. I agree that you can't just know what a person behind you is doing and spin around to block them, but I do have to slightly disagree with you on the idea that there is no such thing as a "block" in karate--I think that there can be, but it's not usually the most effective thing you can do.

When coworkers/friends/family/my wife jokingly punch at me I will usually block it, and that's all--either a palm block, a swim block or a backhand block, typically--which works out just fine because I don't get hit and they don't get hurt. If someone were attacking me, those reactions would probably save me from getting hit once or twice, but blocking is not the most efficient use of my energy when it comes to self defense because it does nothing to end the threat unless I manage to block so hard that they hurt themselves and give up, lol. I would much rather deflect an attack while countering than simply block and wait my turn to attack the attacker.