Agressive OR Passive!?

[nookslist]

i think we can not choose only one option between them since different situation require different attitude. Consider you are a karate student and you are fighting to your opponent during a competition. That time showing passive attitude can lost you game since there is no chance that your opponent will also show the same attitude. But if you show aggressive attitude then you can win the game because aggression create the fear to others.

On the other side, if you have any issue with your friend or native then showing aggressive attitude can sour the relationship. That time passive attitude helps in solving the problems.

[lowereastside]

Aggressive OR Passive!? - The style of Kung Fu that I practice ( Jook Lum Praying Mantis ) is an aggressive style but at the same time a calmness of mind must exist. To a lot of folks it can get confusing being calm and at the same time trying to take someones head off. But that's the way the style works - or should work. Once I was able to put this into my body - my whole concept - understanding of YinYang - SoftHard changed.

[CredoTe]

I think it depends on whether you're talking about sport/competition sparring, or a real, self-defense situation.

In sport, especially point sparring, you need to mix it up and sometimes be aggressive, sometimes passive.

In self-defense, it depends on the situation. Are there multiple attackers? Is your opponent physically larger and stronger than you? Does he have a weapon?

And from:

When we look at combative work, aggression is the best answer in almost every possible situation. Passive or defensive mindset almost always gets one overrun. Look at most every dash cam video you see of cops betting beat up, the single event that every one of them will have is the cop backing up, or defending, or trying to block while the aggressor runs over him and takes dominance. Now flip that, every dash cam video where the cop wins with minimal damage will have an example of an aggressive cop pressing the fight.

Granted, this is not a scientific study, nor does it encompass all of the situations where those training in martial arts might find themselves, but it illustrates the mindset the gives one the best chance of winning. If you're training for self defense, it gives a fairly good indicator of the kinds of things we need to be looking at training into our students.

In my earlier days of my journey, I was an aggressive blockhead, especially when I competed. I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. Once I gained some humbleness, I started to become more passive and eventually became a passive blockhead. As a passive blockhead, whether in street defense kumite / partner drills or in competition kumite, I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. (Blockhead = me not learning to change my ways and getting my rear end handed to me.)

Since then, I've learned that in a street defense situation, a normal, humble joe shmoe MA like most folks and myself need to maintain a certain amount of passivity and mental calmness to a certain point. Once a situation on the street changes from verbal to physical, at that precise moment, a mental switch must flip and "HIYAAAAH!" You must be aggressive enough from that point forward to defend yourself and / or your loved ones, regardless of number of attackers. Multiple opponents means you must change your tactics from how you would take on one opponent (and must include trying to be a track star...run away!).

tallgeese, remember that joe shmoe MAs don't have the benefit of military or LOE training. Military and LOE's like you are trained to be soldiers, and that you're trained from the start to be aggressive because of the situations that you will most likely be in (which I think is some of the wisdom you're trying to share). Because we don't deal with intense situations like military or LOEs on a normal basis, and because we don't have the badge of law supporting us, joe shmoes like us will have a different encounter experience and must contend with an attacker on the street a little differently. I understand that LOEs would say, that besides basic routine traffic stops, every serious encounter is unique (I have 4 students that are LOEs), but, if you would, humor me for a few

For instance, if some street thug decided to get brody with me at a parking lot or whatever somewhere and threatened to close in on my or my loved one's personal space (but has not yet crossed it), I have two basic options. 1) I can remain calm and passive and move my loved one and I out of danger while informing said brody street thug that "we don't want trouble / leave us alone." Or, 2) I can flip my "HIYAAAAH" switch and go aggressive in an attempt to preempt this theoretical brody street thug. As a joe shmoe, if I choose option 2, brody street thug is not going to react the same way if you, as an LOE, would choose option 2. It's psychological: people react differently to uniformed and badged law officers than to joe shmoes (else, why would there be undercover officers?). If you choose option 2, said brody street thug knows you're armed, have access to backup, etc... He knows his options are to run (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), to attack you with fists (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), or attack you with weapon (and get maced, tasered, or shot; in case of mace or taser, followed by splatter-tackled and arrested).

Because brody street thug already has a plan of aggression in mind (even if only random / spontaneous), if I choose option 2, I will most likely get my rear end handed to me or killed. However, if I choose option 1, and thus prepare for impending danger by putting myself and loved one in better position, when brody street thug crosses that line of personal space, SURPRISE! "HIYAAAH!" switch flipped, counter-aggression on, supported by my MA training. If weapons are involved, brody's wrists, elbows, and knees are subject to breakage, and his throat and groin are subject to smashing... Takedowns work in any case, but if brody has buddies with him, there's no time to turn a takedown into a tap-out. A takedown must take brody out in order to move on to his buddies.

Preemptive, on-all-the-time aggression works in sport competition / MMA because contenders are in a controlled environment with rules and no fear or expectation of death (reasonably, that is; i.e, when was the last time someone was killed in an MMA bout?). In sport competition / MMA, people do train to win, and superior aggression almost ensures victory. However, in street defense, there is no winning, only survival. To quote:

The martial arts arose out of the fundamental human instinct of self-preservation.

Self-preservation = survival...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to disparage you and your training methods, or the wisdom you are trying to impart. From your posts I've read around here, sounds like you're intensely well trained and experienced. I plan on researching the court case you mentioned in a previous post on this thread.

While I've never won championships at competitions / tournaments, I've successfully defended myself and loved ones in street situations. And, I'm definitely no master, either. One of my personal improvement projects in my MA training is I think I've gone too far back towards being a passive blockhead. So, I'm training to be more aggressive in my defense responses...

Oops... Sorry my 2 cents ballooned into a novel again... I get long-winded sometimes

[sensei8]

I think it depends on whether you're talking about sport/competition sparring, or a real, self-defense situation.

In sport, especially point sparring, you need to mix it up and sometimes be aggressive, sometimes passive.

In self-defense, it depends on the situation. Are there multiple attackers? Is your opponent physically larger and stronger than you? Does he have a weapon?

And from:

When we look at combative work, aggression is the best answer in almost every possible situation. Passive or defensive mindset almost always gets one overrun. Look at most every dash cam video you see of cops betting beat up, the single event that every one of them will have is the cop backing up, or defending, or trying to block while the aggressor runs over him and takes dominance. Now flip that, every dash cam video where the cop wins with minimal damage will have an example of an aggressive cop pressing the fight.

Granted, this is not a scientific study, nor does it encompass all of the situations where those training in martial arts might find themselves, but it illustrates the mindset the gives one the best chance of winning. If you're training for self defense, it gives a fairly good indicator of the kinds of things we need to be looking at training into our students.

In my earlier days of my journey, I was an aggressive blockhead, especially when I competed. I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. Once I gained some humbleness, I started to become more passive and eventually became a passive blockhead. As a passive blockhead, whether in street defense kumite / partner drills or in competition kumite, I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. (Blockhead = me not learning to change my ways and getting my rear end handed to me.)

Since then, I've learned that in a street defense situation, a normal, humble joe shmoe MA like most folks and myself need to maintain a certain amount of passivity and mental calmness to a certain point. Once a situation on the street changes from verbal to physical, at that precise moment, a mental switch must flip and "HIYAAAAH!" You must be aggressive enough from that point forward to defend yourself and / or your loved ones, regardless of number of attackers. Multiple opponents means you must change your tactics from how you would take on one opponent (and must include trying to be a track star...run away!).

tallgeese, remember that joe shmoe MAs don't have the benefit of military or LOE training. Military and LOE's like you are trained to be soldiers, and that you're trained from the start to be aggressive because of the situations that you will most likely be in (which I think is some of the wisdom you're trying to share). Because we don't deal with intense situations like military or LOEs on a normal basis, and because we don't have the badge of law supporting us, joe shmoes like us will have a different encounter experience and must contend with an attacker on the street a little differently. I understand that LOEs would say, that besides basic routine traffic stops, every serious encounter is unique (I have 4 students that are LOEs), but, if you would, humor me for a few

For instance, if some street thug decided to get brody with me at a parking lot or whatever somewhere and threatened to close in on my or my loved one's personal space (but has not yet crossed it), I have two basic options. 1) I can remain calm and passive and move my loved one and I out of danger while informing said brody street thug that "we don't want trouble / leave us alone." Or, 2) I can flip my "HIYAAAAH" switch and go aggressive in an attempt to preempt this theoretical brody street thug. As a joe shmoe, if I choose option 2, brody street thug is not going to react the same way if you, as an LOE, would choose option 2. It's psychological: people react differently to uniformed and badged law officers than to joe shmoes (else, why would there be undercover officers?). If you choose option 2, said brody street thug knows you're armed, have access to backup, etc... He knows his options are to run (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), to attack you with fists (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), or attack you with weapon (and get maced, tasered, or shot; in case of mace or taser, followed by splatter-tackled and arrested).

Because brody street thug already has a plan of aggression in mind (even if only random / spontaneous), if I choose option 2, I will most likely get my rear end handed to me or killed. However, if I choose option 1, and thus prepare for impending danger by putting myself and loved one in better position, when brody street thug crosses that line of personal space, SURPRISE! "HIYAAAH!" switch flipped, counter-aggression on, supported by my MA training. If weapons are involved, brody's wrists, elbows, and knees are subject to breakage, and his throat and groin are subject to smashing... Takedowns work in any case, but if brody has buddies with him, there's no time to turn a takedown into a tap-out. A takedown must take brody out in order to move on to his buddies.

Preemptive, on-all-the-time aggression works in sport competition / MMA because contenders are in a controlled environment with rules and no fear or expectation of death (reasonably, that is; i.e, when was the last time someone was killed in an MMA bout?). In sport competition / MMA, people do train to win, and superior aggression almost ensures victory. However, in street defense, there is no winning, only survival. To quote:

The martial arts arose out of the fundamental human instinct of self-preservation.

Self-preservation = survival...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to disparage you and your training methods, or the wisdom you are trying to impart. From your posts I've read around here, sounds like you're intensely well trained and experienced. I plan on researching the court case you mentioned in a previous post on this thread.

While I've never won championships at competitions / tournaments, I've successfully defended myself and loved ones in street situations. And, I'm definitely no master, either. One of my personal improvement projects in my MA training is I think I've gone too far back towards being a passive blockhead. So, I'm training to be more aggressive in my defense responses...

Oops... Sorry my 2 cents ballooned into a novel again... I get long-winded sometimes

Solid post!!

Btw, you're not long-winded imho. No, on the contrary because your posts are quite enjoyable and full of meat. Keep your posts coming!!

[Hawkmoon]

Passive or aggressive.

The situation is going to be the guide here. A good confidant posture towards your attacker is enough is many cases.

A confident passive, none threatening stance or posture is as effective as a confident aggressive stance!

If the situation leaves you with no choice but to fight then its aggression simple as that, get it done get it over get home.

Its there choice not yours so make sure they understand your view on the subject!

[CredoTe]

Passive or aggressive.

The situation is going to be the guide here. A good confidant posture towards your attacker is enough is many cases.

A confident passive, none threatening stance or posture is as effective as a confident aggressive stance!

If the situation leaves you with no choice but to fight then its aggression simple as that, get it done get it over get home.

Its there choice not yours so make sure they understand your view on the subject!

...and sometimes I think I need to work on being more simple and to the point like this... Great post Hawkmoon!

[sensei8]

Passive or aggressive.

The situation is going to be the guide here. A good confidant posture towards your attacker is enough is many cases.

A confident passive, none threatening stance or posture is as effective as a confident aggressive stance!

If the situation leaves you with no choice but to fight then its aggression simple as that, get it done get it over get home.

Its there choice not yours so make sure they understand your view on the subject!

Solid post!!

[tallgeese]

I think it depends on whether you're talking about sport/competition sparring, or a real, self-defense situation.

In sport, especially point sparring, you need to mix it up and sometimes be aggressive, sometimes passive.

In self-defense, it depends on the situation. Are there multiple attackers? Is your opponent physically larger and stronger than you? Does he have a weapon?

And from:

When we look at combative work, aggression is the best answer in almost every possible situation. Passive or defensive mindset almost always gets one overrun. Look at most every dash cam video you see of cops betting beat up, the single event that every one of them will have is the cop backing up, or defending, or trying to block while the aggressor runs over him and takes dominance. Now flip that, every dash cam video where the cop wins with minimal damage will have an example of an aggressive cop pressing the fight.

Granted, this is not a scientific study, nor does it encompass all of the situations where those training in martial arts might find themselves, but it illustrates the mindset the gives one the best chance of winning. If you're training for self defense, it gives a fairly good indicator of the kinds of things we need to be looking at training into our students.

In my earlier days of my journey, I was an aggressive blockhead, especially when I competed. I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. Once I gained some humbleness, I started to become more passive and eventually became a passive blockhead. As a passive blockhead, whether in street defense kumite / partner drills or in competition kumite, I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. (Blockhead = me not learning to change my ways and getting my rear end handed to me.)

Since then, I've learned that in a street defense situation, a normal, humble joe shmoe MA like most folks and myself need to maintain a certain amount of passivity and mental calmness to a certain point. Once a situation on the street changes from verbal to physical, at that precise moment, a mental switch must flip and "HIYAAAAH!" You must be aggressive enough from that point forward to defend yourself and / or your loved ones, regardless of number of attackers. Multiple opponents means you must change your tactics from how you would take on one opponent (and must include trying to be a track star...run away!).

tallgeese, remember that joe shmoe MAs don't have the benefit of military or LOE training. Military and LOE's like you are trained to be soldiers, and that you're trained from the start to be aggressive because of the situations that you will most likely be in (which I think is some of the wisdom you're trying to share). Because we don't deal with intense situations like military or LOEs on a normal basis, and because we don't have the badge of law supporting us, joe shmoes like us will have a different encounter experience and must contend with an attacker on the street a little differently. I understand that LOEs would say, that besides basic routine traffic stops, every serious encounter is unique (I have 4 students that are LOEs), but, if you would, humor me for a few

For instance, if some street thug decided to get brody with me at a parking lot or whatever somewhere and threatened to close in on my or my loved one's personal space (but has not yet crossed it), I have two basic options. 1) I can remain calm and passive and move my loved one and I out of danger while informing said brody street thug that "we don't want trouble / leave us alone." Or, 2) I can flip my "HIYAAAAH" switch and go aggressive in an attempt to preempt this theoretical brody street thug. As a joe shmoe, if I choose option 2, brody street thug is not going to react the same way if you, as an LOE, would choose option 2. It's psychological: people react differently to uniformed and badged law officers than to joe shmoes (else, why would there be undercover officers?). If you choose option 2, said brody street thug knows you're armed, have access to backup, etc... He knows his options are to run (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), to attack you with fists (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), or attack you with weapon (and get maced, tasered, or shot; in case of mace or taser, followed by splatter-tackled and arrested).

Because brody street thug already has a plan of aggression in mind (even if only random / spontaneous), if I choose option 2, I will most likely get my rear end handed to me or killed. However, if I choose option 1, and thus prepare for impending danger by putting myself and loved one in better position, when brody street thug crosses that line of personal space, SURPRISE! "HIYAAAH!" switch flipped, counter-aggression on, supported by my MA training. If weapons are involved, brody's wrists, elbows, and knees are subject to breakage, and his throat and groin are subject to smashing... Takedowns work in any case, but if brody has buddies with him, there's no time to turn a takedown into a tap-out. A takedown must take brody out in order to move on to his buddies.

Preemptive, on-all-the-time aggression works in sport competition / MMA because contenders are in a controlled environment with rules and no fear or expectation of death (reasonably, that is; i.e, when was the last time someone was killed in an MMA bout?). In sport competition / MMA, people do train to win, and superior aggression almost ensures victory. However, in street defense, there is no winning, only survival. To quote:

The martial arts arose out of the fundamental human instinct of self-preservation.

Self-preservation = survival...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to disparage you and your training methods, or the wisdom you are trying to impart. From your posts I've read around here, sounds like you're intensely well trained and experienced. I plan on researching the court case you mentioned in a previous post on this thread.

While I've never won championships at competitions / tournaments, I've successfully defended myself and loved ones in street situations. And, I'm definitely no master, either. One of my personal improvement projects in my MA training is I think I've gone too far back towards being a passive blockhead. So, I'm training to be more aggressive in my defense responses...

Oops... Sorry my 2 cents ballooned into a novel again... I get long-winded sometimes

I don't really disagree with your points. I'm not talking about the tactics of when to or not to engage. My point of aggression is better (mostly) is based on once things start. What goes on before is a study all its own with its own considerations.

Nor am I talking about aggression once the conflict starts in terms of a blind, blockheaded rage. It's a calculated, forward pressing, skilled response driven by a mindset to bring overwhelming violence to bear on a situation until its solved.

Once your assaulted by a bad guy I don't think it matters much if you're a cop or not, its winning that matters. Keeping him on the defensive instead of you is, in my experience, the best way to ensure that happens.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't really disagree with your points. I'm not talking about the tactics of when to or not to engage. ........

.......

Nor am I talking about aggression once the conflict starts in terms of a blind, blockheaded rage. It's a calculated, forward pressing, skilled response driven by a mindset to bring overwhelming violence to bear on a situation until its solved.

Once your assaulted by a bad guy I don't think it matters much if you're a cop or not, its winning that matters. Keeping him on the defensive instead of you is, in my experience, the best way to ensure that happens.

Absolutely!

To go off on a mission with pure rage/anger 'ROAR' in you head, not going to end the way your think it will!

Your position on society didn't matter at the start of the confrontation, so its only value is to you and how 'you' wish to be remembered/considered by others because of the impending conflict.

The only thing, if this is correct to say it so bluntly, is your need to weigh up the situation take your stance/posture and follow it 100% to its conclusion.

Do you take;

A positive confident, none aggressive posture can go a long way to diffusing the situation. If the person before you is not swayed by that position and they move on the next stage, as was said earlier its there choice to fight.

An aggressive posture showing your confidence and to a degree your disdain for the attacker, the person before you is not swayed by that position and they move on the next stage, as was said earlier its there choice to fight.

So truthfully, how do you wish the police report to read or your family, friends the community to look at you after the dust settles?

As a trained fighter you have many responsibility to take into consideration. They are not limited to law, they cover:

Mum

Ryu

son, daughter

Art

Friends

Students

Sensei

Police

School

Church

...

..

the list is practically endless!

I'll repeat, if you 'must' fight then "get it done get it over get home" have no pride in the action, but be 100% clear, certain and open about the facts and truth of the incident, have no grey areas that are difficult to explain to any one.

[unknownstyle]

I like to let people chase me, I'm a small wirey guy. but when they start toget frustrated and drop their hands and get lazy i lay on the aggressive attacks. in competition i don't fight this way though. the tournaments i used to go to tended to have a lot of people with rank they didn't deserve. so i would steam roll them. i started fighting in the black belt division as a brown belt and would lay on the agression. a lot of the reason being i know they couldn't hurt me. i would watch them throw their best shot and when i kept coming forward tgey showed the worry in their face. so it depends on the fighter and all that